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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Deny Kurt Cobain GIF by Nirvana


That, or... recognize that combat is only one pillar, and that there are many ways to optimize, and thus contribute, in many facets of the game

I am led to believe the way to do that is to play a wizard? (Especially with some new swap-thibgs-out power?)
 

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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
You can't do that with any character

I know I haven't. The wizard doing it with utility spells and enough flexibility seems to be the claim.

In any case, I have my doubts about all three pillars typically being relatively balanced (in D&D anyway) within a single session in terms or focus time or importance, or even two adjacent sessions even if the GM is trying. Some might not mind waiting a few sessions.

Even within pillars, if there are more characters than pillars, the efficacy of the separate characters seems like it might not match depending on the system and options chosen (with, say, 5e being better about it than 3.5/PF1).
 
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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
I know I haven't. The wizard doing it with utility spells and enough flexibility seems to be the claim.
The problem here is that the Wizard has plenty of limiting factors that aren't often taken into account by Gap Truthers. Sure, flexibility is the Wizard's greatest strength... it just happens to be in a game that, by and large, rewards specialization over generalities. A wizard can always serve as a bit of a swiss army knife, but there a multitude of situations a swiss army knife just isn't going to cut it at, and plenty of others where a more specialized tool in the shed will prove far more useful
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
You absolutely can as a DM, lean into the Exploration and Interaction pillars. It just, more likely widens the martial/caster gap.
I mean, Martial 🤷
If anything, Combat is probably marginally-less imbalanced than the other two of the three pillars, since it's the focus of the least versatile classes, and DPR is notoriously easy to check up on.

In any pillar, casters can just learn/prep a variety of spells, and spontaneously cast the best one for a given situation, when the situation warrants using a slot. 🤷 In less important situations, you have cantrips to grind damage all day, skills (just like everyone else, likely more than some), non-combat cantrips, and, if time isn't the issue, rituals.

At least in the classic game, old-Vancian casting, and restrictions on the act of spellcasting itself, made that a bit of a challenge - heck, it made surviving 1st level a challenge...
 
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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Yeah, the wizard obviating other classes really is a thing. It costs spell slots, sure...unless you can ritual cast the spell...and with the new wizard ability to memorize any spell at any time with only a 5-minute break (or whatever the nonsense is), the problem is even worse.
I have never seen this play out like this, ever, for a number of reasons that only really exist when you're actually playing the game with living, reasonable humans.

1) Someone else is as good at or better at the thing.

2) Letting them do the thing means the Wizard doesn't have to waste the resources of spell slots...
2b) ...or ten minutes, and ten minutes free of distractions happen so often, right?

3) The wizard can only memorize so many spells to begin with. A wizard who wastes a spell prep on Knock when there is a Rogue in the party is Doing It Wrong.
 


Aldarc

Legend
Balance in a cooperative game is completely unnecessary.
Tell that to the players who are constantly overshadowed by other players.
Stepping away from D&D and TTRPGs for a second, there are cooperative board games like Pandemic or Forbidden Desert where players pick “characters” that have different actions or moves that they can do on their turn. What people quickly learn is that some roles are above and beyond better than other roles. So some roles will be consistently picked over others because the things they do make victory or accomplishing certain tasks easier. I remember my partner’s sister playing such a game with us. She picked her character but she felt overshadowed by the other options and more to the point, she felt as if she wasn’t able to contribute as much (if at all) to winning the game. So when we finished the game, she felt incredibly dissatisfied and underwhelmed by the game, even though the players who chose the “essentials” felt much better about the game because they weren’t overshadowed. I think about that a lot because I seem to recall that some of the later games after Pandemic balanced roles much better, leading to greater player satisfaction across the board when picking different roles that they want to play.

So no, I no longer think that “balance in a cooperative game is completely unnecessary.” There have been too many times that I have seen how imbalance in cooperative games can and does kill the fun for some participants.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Stepping away from D&D and TTRPGs for a second, there are cooperative board games like Pandemic or Forbidden Desert where players pick “characters” that have different actions or moves that they can do on their turn. What people quickly learn is that some roles are above and beyond better than other roles. So some roles will be consistently picked over others because the things they do make victory or accomplishing certain tasks easier. I remember my partner’s sister playing such a game with us. She picked her character but she felt overshadowed by the other options and more to the point, she felt as if she wasn’t able to contribute as much (if at all) to winning the game. So when we finished the game, she felt incredibly dissatisfied and underwhelmed by the game, even though the players who chose the “essentials” felt much better about the game because they weren’t overshadowed. I think about that a lot because I seem to recall that some of the later games after Pandemic balanced roles much better, leading to greater player satisfaction across the board when picking different roles that they want to play.

So no, I no longer think that “balance in a cooperative game is completely unnecessary.” There have been too many times that I have seen how imbalance in cooperative games can and does kill the fun for some participants.
Yeah I guess I should have specified TTRPGs
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
The thread moved a LOT since I was last in here!

I’ll just say I knew during the published playtest reports and early game experiences shared on ENWorld that 5Ed wasn’t for me. It’s the first edition of D&D I own zero of. (And I would not be surprised to find some or even all subsequent editions to be voids in my collection.)

But to be clear, I completely agree with what @Snarf Zagyg was saying about its popularity and design. I might as well have posted something similar myself.

My dislike of 5Ed isn’t an indictment, it’s a variance in taste.
 

pemerton

Legend
This only works if the other pillars are used as regularly. Which they rarely are in general in the RPG hobby, and D&D doesn't even lean into those other pillars as well as some.
I can't comment on the hobby as a whole. But I play, or have played, plenty of RPGs in which some important characters' principal strengths are not combat - Classic Traveller, Prince Valiant, Burning Wheel, Torchbearer, to some extent Rolemaster, even to some extent the invoker/wizard ritualist in my 4e D&D game.

I don't think that this has much to do with balance, though. The significance of balance - in some sense of a comparable degree of mechanical capacity enjoyed by players, in virtue of their PCs, to impact the fiction of the game - doesn't go away because the game involves situations and conflicts that are not combat-reltaed.
 

Stepping away from D&D and TTRPGs for a second, there are cooperative board games like Pandemic or Forbidden Desert where players pick “characters” that have different actions or moves that they can do on their turn. What people quickly learn is that some roles are above and beyond better than other roles. So some roles will be consistently picked over others because the things they do make victory or accomplishing certain tasks easier. I remember my partner’s sister playing such a game with us. She picked her character but she felt overshadowed by the other options and more to the point, she felt as if she wasn’t able to contribute as much (if at all) to winning the game. So when we finished the game, she felt incredibly dissatisfied and underwhelmed by the game, even though the players who chose the “essentials” felt much better about the game because they weren’t overshadowed. I think about that a lot because I seem to recall that some of the later games after Pandemic balanced roles much better, leading to greater player satisfaction across the board when picking different roles that they want to play.

So no, I no longer think that “balance in a cooperative game is completely unnecessary.” There have been too many times that I have seen how imbalance in cooperative games can and does kill the fun for some participants.
I think some of the fun with Pandemic (for me) is the randomisation of characters selected by the players as we do not pick. We played the hardest level and weirdly never once did the Medic come up. We won only on the 5th time and only by the skin of our teeth.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Yeah, I guess I should have specified what I thought was obvious that my point about imbalance in cooperative games extends equally to TTRPGs because I have seen similar experiences all too many times.
I don't know how many more different ways there to explain that in a TTRPG that there are so many ways beyond core game mechanics to make an impact and contribution to shared goals that the need for balance becomes vestigial.
 

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