Level Up (A5E) "Untamed" synergy feats

Anselm

Adventurer
I'm having trouble understanding how the second and third synergy feats in the Untamed group are good. Living stampede and wild hysteric give your rage benefits to allied beasts, fey, or plants when you are raging, up to your wisdom modifier. However, untamed only adds the benefits of being able to cast and concentrate on spells with range of touch or self in a rage, which means you cannot use conjuration spells (specifically, conjure beasts) and therefore you just have to hope there's allies around that are the beast, fey, or plant type? I feel like I must be missing some benefit because two feats that are that niche really don't seem worth the two ASIs, nor worthy of the level 8 and level 12 minimum wait time necessary to see them in play. Any thoughts? I miss something?
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
I did a quick search of self & touch concentration druid spells & there are a few winners in there, here's the list of lrevel 1-4 ones.
  • deadweight: strength save or disarmed & tied to an object to prevent just picking it up again
  • Flameblade plus the rare lightning/radiant flameblade versions
  • Gust of wind:situational but notable with certain exploration challenge type things
  • Invigorated strikes: +1d4 or +1d8/1d10 damage on attacks deoending on slot level
  • Pass without a trace: we all know what it does
  • Protection from energy: resist an energy type
  • Cobra's spit: spit venom for a decent bit of poison damage
  • Poison skin: Touched target gets a damage shield & deals 1d6 or more whenever attacked depending on slot level
  • Aspect of the moon: plus a lot of stuff including +1d8 on attacks
  • Mindshield: resist psychic damage & advantage on saves vrs charm/fear
  • Stoneskin: resist nonmagical b/p/s
There are a decent chunk of spells plus whatever spells you manage to research
 

Anselm

Adventurer
I did a quick search of self & touch concentration druid spells & there are a few winners in there, here's the list of lrevel 1-4 ones.
  • deadweight: strength save or disarmed & tied to an object to prevent just picking it up again
  • Flameblade plus the rare lightning/radiant flameblade versions
  • Gust of wind:situational but notable with certain exploration challenge type things
  • Invigorated strikes: +1d4 or +1d8/1d10 damage on attacks deoending on slot level
  • Pass without a trace: we all know what it does
  • Protection from energy: resist an energy type
  • Cobra's spit: spit venom for a decent bit of poison damage
  • Poison skin: Touched target gets a damage shield & deals 1d6 or more whenever attacked depending on slot level
  • Aspect of the moon: plus a lot of stuff including +1d8 on attacks
  • Mindshield: resist psychic damage & advantage on saves vrs charm/fear
  • Stoneskin: resist nonmagical b/p/s
There are a decent chunk of spells plus whatever spells you manage to research
Sorry, my question is not about the utility of self and touch spells (which is very useful) but about the giving rage benefits to beasts, fey, and plants. The only thing I can think this would benefit is summoning or conjuring spells but those spells are not self or touch.
 

johna_thr33

Explorer
Druids get some class features that allow summons, such as Nature’s Bond that lets you cast find familiar using Wild Shape, creating a fey.

Additionally, Level Up as a system is very accommodating to acquiring companions of various forms, such as purchasing pets.

If you want it to synergize a little better as a house rule, you could change the text in Untamed very slightly:
You can concentrate on druid spells and cast druid spells with a range of self or touch while raging.
 

Anselm

Adventurer
Druids get some class features that allow summons, such as Nature’s Bond that lets you cast find familiar using Wild Shape, creating a fey.
That's the only thing I saw and find familiar is very much not a thing that would benefit from rage bonus (not that it can't be very situationally useful). It's only very rarely used in combat in games I've been in and it's only a single creature.

It's just strange that those two feats have no useful raw uses that are not up to dm adding additional things and also have such a heavy investment cost.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I'm having trouble understanding how the second and third synergy feats in the Untamed group are good. Living stampede and wild hysteric give your rage benefits to allied beasts, fey, or plants when you are raging, up to your wisdom modifier. However, untamed only adds the benefits of being able to cast and concentrate on spells with range of touch or self in a rage, which means you cannot use conjuration spells (specifically, conjure beasts) and therefore you just have to hope there's allies around that are the beast, fey, or plant type? I feel like I must be missing some benefit because two feats that are that niche really don't seem worth the two ASIs, nor worthy of the level 8 and level 12 minimum wait time necessary to see them in play. Any thoughts? I miss something?
Well, most conjure spells have a duration of an hour, and there's the faster casting option. So you can have the creatures conjured ahead of time. Also, Living Stampede lets you choose whatever you have around you. They don't necessarily need to be allies--they just need have a reason to dislike your foes. And anyway, with an animal friendship spell you can easily have a few animal allies.
 

Anselm

Adventurer
Well, most conjure spells have a duration of an hour, and there's the faster casting option. So you can have the creatures conjured ahead of time.
They're all concentration spells with a 30/60 ft range unfortunately. Untamed specifies you can only cast or concentrate on touch or self in a rage.

Animal friendship and pets are definitely a possibility but require the dm putting those things there in the first place.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
They're all concentration spells with a 30/60 ft range unfortunately. Untamed specifies you can only cast or concentrate on touch or self in a rage.

Animal friendship and pets are definitely a possibility but require the dm putting those things there in the first place.
You summon them before you enter the rage.
 


Faolyn

(she/her)
And lose concentration when you enter the rage
Each conjure spell has a rare version that doesn't require concentration--which probably exists for exactly this reason. Of course, your Narrator will have to decide if you can get the rare version. But honestly, if you're spending your ASIs on these feats, I know I would.

There's also a rare version of animal friendship which is semi-permanent which should help provide you with animal allies--and that's not even considering that as a druid, you probably have befriended some animals, plants, and maybe even fey anyway.
 

Anselm

Adventurer
Each conjure spell has a rare version that doesn't require concentration--which probably exists for exactly this reason. Of course, your Narrator will have to decide if you can get the rare version. But honestly, if you're spending your ASIs on these feats, I know I would.

There's also a rare version of animal friendship which is semi-permanent which should help provide you with animal allies--and that's not even considering that as a druid, you probably have befriended some animals, plants, and maybe even fey anyway.
Yeah the rare versions for sure mitigate it a bit as an option. Again, dm intervention is required to get there. It's not quite as severe as my first impression but it's still awfully limited by things that are RAW and you can assume access to. Animal friendship and awaken seem like the only things that fit the bill without that intervention. Again, seems like not much is there for the investment required.

Thanks for the thoughts! Glad we found a couple things more than just "see if you can convince that squirrel to be useful"
 

Kinematics

Adventurer
Each conjure spell has a rare version that doesn't require concentration--which probably exists for exactly this reason.
If the spell doesn't require concentration, then the benefit of the feat doesn't matter anyway. So the original question still remains.

But @johna_thr33 's suggested adjustment is what I'd probably use.
 

Anselm

Adventurer
If the spell doesn't require concentration, then the benefit of the feat doesn't matter anyway. So the original question still remains.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why would you not be able to utilize the feat on non concentration spells? We're talking about the benefits of living stampede, not untamed.
 

johna_thr33

Explorer
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why would you not be able to utilize the feat on non concentration spells? We're talking about the benefits of living stampede, not untamed.
 

johna_thr33

Explorer
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why would you not be able to utilize the feat on non concentration spells? We're talking about the benefits of living stampede, not untamed.
All the issues you were listing about Living Stampede stemmed from the restriction placed on spells by Untamed. If you fix that issue, suddenly you have access to a substantial number of beasts, fey, and plants to give benefits to
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
If the spell doesn't require concentration, then the benefit of the feat doesn't matter anyway. So the original question still remains.

But @johna_thr33 's suggested adjustment is what I'd probably use.
In re-reading the feats, I'm not sure this follows. You can cast and concentrate on spells that are Self and Touch while raging, but that wouldn't affect any conjure spells anyway because they're not Self or Touch spells. So you cast the rare version of the spell that doesn't require concentration and you gain every other benefit of the feat chain.
 

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