Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Anubis]

Out of the 167 (or so) Feats available you need Power Attack; Power Critical and Devastating Critical (naturally with all prereqs) . Hit, and the opponent has to make a save with a DC of 110+STR Bonus (on average lets say about 130).

The attack is virtually a guaranteed to hit; critical and deliver at least 61 damage - thats not counting the fact that you could have easily taken the Penetrate Damage Reduction Feat ten times over. Or buffed your strength up considerably. Or used Power Attack. Or stacked the Epic Prowess feat dozens of times and used even more on the Power Attack. Or any of the myriad other options.

By the way, sorry to nitpick, but . . .

Power Attack is limited by the base attack bonus, which stops increasing at Level 20. (The ELH *only* allows the epic bonus to stack with the base attack bonus for purposes of feat prerequisites.)

Another note is that Penetrate Damage Reduction can only be taken once.

 

[Xeriar]

Upper Krust, the fighter can't take SR because he doesn't start with it, and can only take penetrate damage reduction once, by the rules.

In addition to the spells and magic items that negate critical hits, stop death effects, and make one-hit-wonders a far cry from a sure shot (even Mirror Image), there are also three spells - Maze, Legend Lore and Imprisonment, that can let the dragon take care of the fighter without so much as a saving throw.

 

[epote]

200lv

i dont have phb or elh with me right now (damn those players) but doesnt imprisoment need a touch atack? if it does how does the dragon would manage that?

i mean 170 feats is 170 feats plus he gets +50 to stats due to levels, and with a 16 con (wich most defently wont be 16 at 200 level!) he has 600 hit points only out the bonuses

so if he has something like +40 to dex and con (thats realy realy reasonable!!) he realy has ALOT of hp's (lets say at 56 con ( and an average 6 hp per level due to the dice) he has 200*6+200*21 to a total of 5400 hp the guy is moving mountain for crying out loud! (lol you could always Harm his ass of)

so we have left with +10 wich goes to a 14 dex along with an aditional +30 feat bonuses, to a 54 dex (+20) put some exceptional misile reflection (or what its called) along with that other feat that substructs 20 from your atack to put to your ac (fighting defesinvly) to a 50 ac (at least because i dont remember the feats) although at that level he sould already have ridicilusly high SR due to feats (where does it mention you sould already hav SR to take that feat?!)

i will make a 200lv fighter with no magic equipment when i get the time

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Epiphany

Hi guys!

Then, publish it tomorrow, what are you waiting for!

Seriously, though, if it means it'll be even easier, then by all means, publish it like that. That'll enable us to see it sooner, and if it is easier to use, that will be even better...

Yes! Post it tomorrow! Or send me an advance copy and I'll send you money!

If only it were that simple.

Like I said I don't think its a wise move to publish devoid of examples. So I still technically need the ELH in the SRD (I have a suspicion that it is more likely to be entered than D&Dg though).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

So you advocate that Devastating Critical, a feat which you yourself have said should be toned down a little, be the balancing factor for Epic characters?

Actually your confused (again) its Annihilating Strike thats broken, NOT Devastating Critical.

Seems to be kinda fishy to me. Besides, not all characters will have Devastating Critical.

Its pretty much guaranteed all 200th-level Barbarians; Fighters and Paladins will have it (Rangers have Death of Enemies).

Also, it's hard to hit something that can fly over your head and smack you around while you can do nothing to strike back . . . I think that kills your little idea . . .

Am I not allowed any missile weapons now as well?

Whats the next handicap. A 200th-level Wizard in an Anti-Magic Room with a dozen Hecatonchieres?

On a side note, I have thought about the SR issue, and I think perhaps it SHOULD be based on CR and not ECL. Make caster level checks for SR and dispel be based on spellcaster SR, and base SR itself on actual CR, and SR actually continues to be useful.

I'm not sure yet if its wise to mess around with Spell Resistance?

As for the wealth issue, until you can come up with a system of limiting wealth that actually works for ALL campaigns, and actually let us know what it is, I will not be convinced that you know the answer.

I already did.

Seemingly either I'm not explaining it right (if so, sorry) or you're just not getting it?

What mechanics or philosophy don't you understand?

Now on to the next issue . . . I said previously:

"On top of that, you have to have a standard to go by, and a simple formula, and you're just not coming up with one. Yeah, you have formulas for the wealth, but as of yet, you have not given ANY formula or standard to limit magic items."

Your reply was:

"Both the DMG and the ELH already have a standard for this. Thats why I never mentioned it."

The problem I have with that statement is simply that YOU advocate going up AGAINST the standard presented by the DMG and the ELH. The ELH states that character can have up to three items worth between 10-20% of their wealth. You advocate getting rid of that rule altogether.

So again, I will ask, what standard do you propose to FAIRLY limit magic items after a certain point?

I advocate using the '3 items between 10-25% rule' for my Personal Equipment Table (CR^3 x 100 GP).

Since you already started the 200th-level character vs. a Prismatic Great Wyrm and used this exact formula to outline personal equipment I thought that much was obvious (my apologies if it wasn't).

One more thing . . . When will you be able to get around to judging the base ECL/CR of the Saiyan race I posted? This isn't just for me, but for all those interested in using Saiyans. This is vitally important.

I'll do it after I finish with this thread.

We sorted the half-saiyan and the different flavours of super-saiyans right!?

Anyway, thanks in advance.

No problem mate, sorry for my tardiness.

By the way, sorry to nitpick, but . . .

I wouldn't mind the nitpicks so much if they were ever right...

Power Attack is limited by the base attack bonus, which stops increasing at Level 20. (The ELH *only* allows the epic bonus to stack with the base attack bonus for purposes of feat prerequisites.)

Actually if you had read the recent Epic Level Handbook Chat Night Transcript at Wizards site you would know that in the errata they are going to absorb EAB into BAB (to avoid confusion) and simply cap attacks at #4.

Also it makes no sense to allow monsters to have massive power attacks and not characters.

Another note is that Penetrate Damage Reduction can only be taken once.

I don't see why? (though in fairness the ELH should have made it clear one way or the other that it either stacks or doesn't stack rather than simply leaving it blank)

The fact that it actually stacks with both ki strike and magic weapons would seem to favour that it does in fact stack...and I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed to do so anyway!?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Xeriar mate!

Upper Krust, the fighter can't take SR because he doesn't start with it,

That rule seems somewhat irrelevant considering you could likely give yourself permanent Spell Resistance 1 using a wish (or two?) then start taking the feats.

and can only take penetrate damage reduction once, by the rules.

I must have missed where it specifically says this? Can you help me out?

In addition to the spells and magic items that negate critical hits, stop death effects, and make one-hit-wonders a far cry from a sure shot (even Mirror Image), there are also three spells - Maze, Legend Lore and Imprisonment, that can let the dragon take care of the fighter without so much as a saving throw.

I am curious to hear how it protects itself versus critical hits? Not saying it couldn't be done, just interested to hear how?

- Mirror Image is defeated by a Spot Check of 80.
- Maze won't kill the Fighter just delay the inevitable.
- Legend Lore: not exactly a spell to cast in combat and regardless won't kill the Fighter, simply lets the dragon know why it should run away.
- Imprisonment requires a touch attack.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: 200lv

Hi epote mate!

so if he has something like +40 to dex and con (thats realy realy reasonable!!) he realy has ALOT of hp's (lets say at 56 con ( and an average 6 hp per level due to the dice) he has 200*6+200*21 to a total of 5400 hp the guy is moving mountain for crying out loud! (lol you could always Harm his ass off )

Harm (and Heal too) is broken. Expect revisions in the IH.

 

[Knight Otu]

I must have missed where it specifically says this? Can you help me out?

Any feat that doesn't specifically say that it can be taken multiple times cannot be taken multiple times.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Knight Otu mate!

Any feat that doesn't specifically say that it can be taken multiple times cannot be taken multiple times.

Thanks! I must have missed that.

I was having second thoughts about that one anyway after double checking Improved Ki Strike which does much the same thing as Penetrate Damage Reduction; does stack, yet is only half the power.

Fortunately that wasn't essential to my Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon chastisement!

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: 200lv

Harm (and Heal too) is broken. Expect revisions in the IH.

I hope your revisions are better than the others proposed here, ridiculous things such as a flat save for half or that are UNPRECEDENTED by the rules such as limits of 10 hp/level, limiting the damage of a save to not go below 4 hp, and other such silly things.

Maybe something such as, for Heal, restores you to 240 hp or full, whichever is lower. For Harm, perhaps reduce you to 1 hp or deal 240 damage, whichever is less.

Just PLEASE don't do one of those ridiculous set hp per level formulas or ones that limit by number AND damage. The above would be my personal solution. I once advocated a simple saving throw "for half damage or 100 damage, whichever is less" with no limit to heal, but seeing now how many hp Epic characters can have, I see that there is a need to limit it.