Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Re: 200lv

Maybe something such as, for Heal, restores you to 240 hp or full, whichever is lower. For Harm, perhaps reduce you to 1 hp or deal 240 damage, whichever is less.

Just PLEASE don't do one of those ridiculous set hp per level formulas or ones that limit by number AND damage. The above would be my personal solution. I once advocated a simple saving throw "for half damage or 100 damage, whichever is less" with no limit to heal, but seeing now how many hp Epic characters can have, I see that there is a need to limit it.

Oh, and what's the PRECEDENT for this, anyway?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Xeriar mate!

Well, you don't get to 200th level much at all, period .

Agreed!

Though I'll make it someday!

It wasn't my number, anyway. A hundredth-level character would be more definate.

Yes. A Prismatic Great Wyrm is (approx.) ECL 100/CR42. A 100th-level PC (with items) would be slightly higher ECL (thanks to ability scores) but maybe not more than CR43 (unless they averaged 30+ on their scores?).

More or less a 50/50 encounter.

If given nonstandard items, the dragon has different chances.

Depending on the items yes.

Dropping the fighter in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and preventing his access to food or water for one

You mean the dragon was able to teleport him to the planet Earth!?

This was Anubis's deal. You kinda hafta construct the fighter to beat the Dragon, rather than have just any odd assortmant of feats.

Not necessarily.

At about 60th-level the Fighter is going to have all the relevant feats in both the PHB and ELH. So essentially whats left are the stackable feats.

Not exactly - if we're to assume that said dragon has his treasure, or with his auto-sorcerer levels knows a spell that grants him immunity to critical hits.

I'm sure theres one out there somewhere.

Not all spells are affected by spell resistance - Maze, etc.

Especially as the spell is targetting spell resistance itself Wishes can restore Dead Magic Feilds in FR - why do they need to be subject to SR?

Dead Magic Fields are simply permanent extensions of Anti-Magic.

In my opinion you still need to overcome a creatures SR to indulge in such an enterprise.

The Ranger is nasty because he can get around the critical hits, and has that auto-bane feat. The Monk is just... wrong.

The Monk does seem somewhat over the top. Notably its Spell Resistance - this should perhaps be +1/2 Levels above 20th (same with the Drow)

True dat, I think this would be a more applicable source of the original spell resistance, myself.

I just think the Improved Spell Resistance feat in the ELH is badly worded, the 'Improved' is just a stalling tactic. Personally I would just let this affect any (epic) character or creature - you could explain it as a resistance built up over the years (and levels) of encountering and being struck by magic.

Without the ability to deal critical hits, the fighter and the dragon are at an impasse - they still can damage each other, but the damage is meaningless. In order to damage the dragon, the fighter has to sacrifice too much of his BAB to hit often enough, and of course whatever damage the dragon's breath deals the poor sap is going to get healed in short order anyway.

As far as I can tell, unless you really set about min/maxing the fighters strength hes going to be lucky to deal 100 Dmg/Round (assuming 50 strength).

But the dragon is going to be lucky to do any damage!

Even so the dragon can likely retreat before facing serious problems.

The dragon has a vast array of abilities available to it, I don't think the fighter could say, both spot illusions and break through a Wall of Force, and all the other neat tricks the dragon could pull off...

Wall of Force, pemenance, then let him starve to death

Yes I recently noticed the annoyance of the Wall of Force stall tactic first hand.

He doesn't need non-standard spells or items, jjust Iron Body.

With Iron Body in effect theres no way the Dragon would be able to fly and with its move already halved the Fighter would be far more fleet of foot. Also the Dragon now has spell failure chance of 50%! Not sure how much of a boon that really grants under the circumstances.

I did not make that claim - but you made it out to be far easier than it would actually be.

I simply stated the Fighter (devoid of Magic Items) could kill a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon in one hit - which is true.

Of course the great thing about high-level gaming is the variety of powers available. Rarely are things ever guaranteed one way or the other (Hence the slowdown in CR).

 

[-Eä-]

HaY

Greetings, all!

I hope you are all keeping well and prosper privately (-:



I see you have come to a conclusion regarding chracter wealth, and while I heartily disagree with your conclusion, I can see the logic behind it. I just hope it won't be a major issue of the given examples that you will provide in the IH, for that would make the process lengthy for us using another wealth system to assign appropriate amounts of wealth to a given character. Personally I'm considering a new system that is adaptable to heritage and such (you just change the constants).
In my opinion there should be a separate book containing rules for character wealth and medieval economics and magic's influence on that... Actually, I'm considering taking a half-semester course on mathematical economics, for the processes behind are quite intriguing, and perhaps it'll help me privately as well (-; But I will probably not have the time.

What I'm concerned about is SR and penetration of that. I think there should be som link to CR in this, or else the variations would be too great to estimate and there would only be a slim chance (that only gets slimmer at higher levels) that a random spellcaster would have the chance to penetrate the SR of a creature/character with approximatelly the same CR. Penetration should also have a link, in that case, so that the variations will remain more or less the same as in the first 20-30 levels. Also: if this isn't adressed, a whole lot of feats will be useless at higher levels, at they will only affect the variations marginally. Hopefully this can be solved easily with a link to CR, but I'm not sure... There are very many aspects to account for when considering such a thing, so if there is to be a change, be sure to adress all implications first.

By the way, the 168 feats a fighter of level 200 gets is more than the qualities that the prismatic dragon possesses. Chosen at random, he would probably have a fair chance beating it, considering the fact that the diversity is a great advantage.

I guess there will some more things to consider, eventually, but I want to congratulate Upper Krust and Anubis on the great work on ECLs. I think it's most vital to have a system like that. Have you asked WotC about making it official? (The ECL part, that is)

 

[Anubis]

Wall of Force IS quite nifty, ain't it?

Hey, Ea, which of our systems were you disagreeing with? Was it my (ECL^2)*10000 system, of UK's multiple system of (ECL^3)*100 and (CR^3)*100?

I do believe that UK's system is way off, as it gives too much wealth of any sort to characters of Levels 100+. By the way, UK, there is another reason I do not like the system you proposed. By your system, a character at Level 80 will have the SAME amount of personaly equipment as someone at Level 87, which I think highly inaccurate.

If you made some special calculation that would take fractions of a CR into account (such as ECL 80=CR 40, ECL 81=CR 40.125, ECL 82=CR 40.250, etc.) for purposes of determining wealth, then your system may be able to work, because the personal equipment numbers would be close to the numbers that I got, if not lower, which would balance things decently as long as there are new feats that can emulate some magical item powers.



Moving on to the SR, I have agreed with Ea from the beginning. Take for instance a Level 160 character, who is CR 50. If he tries to cast a spell at a Level 175 character with SR 185, he has almost no chance of breaking through the SR, and only a minimal chance with various feats added. Another level 175 character with the same feats, however, would almost never fail in breaking through the SR. Yet these two are the exact same SR.

This means the whole system breaks down once you're in triple-digit levels, even though it is still starting to break down around Level 50.

What I have proposed is make all caster level numbers for SR a function of CR instead of Level. Base all SR on the CR of the creature (for instance, make a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon SR 50 or so since it is about CR 45). Next, make the caster level check for penetrating SR based on the CR of the spellcasting class (a Level 100 Wizard is CR 42, so the check would be 1d20+42). For multi-classed characters, take the CR function of only the spellcasting class (for instance, a Ftr50/Wiz100 would still have CR 42 in the spellcasting class, and thus make a check at 1d20+42, regardless of when those wizard levels are gained).

On a side note, I highly suggest doing the same thing to dispel checks. If you don't, a CR 50 Level 160 Wizard would have no chance of dispelling magic cast by a Level 175 Wizard, despite the CR being exactly the same. Basically, make all caster level checks a function of CR, regardless of what the check is for.

Note, however, that the actual caster level for spells is still the level, so spells wouldn't lose any power under this rule.



By the way, UK, I posted a question for you on the Saiyans thread. I'm still trying to perfect things, you know how it is!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: HaY

Greetings, all!

Hi Eä mate!

I hope you are all keeping well and prosper privately (-:

I see you have come to a conclusion regarding chracter wealth,

Unless someone can point out some frailty in either the mechanic or philosophy involved...anyone?

and while I heartily disagree with your conclusion,

I can see some players disagreeing with (since the power of the items they recieve is lessened) but not DMs.

I can see the logic behind it.

Thanks mate.

I just hope it won't be a major issue of the given examples that you will provide in the IH, for that would make the process lengthy for us using another wealth system to assign appropriate amounts of wealth to a given character.

Wealth is not relative to Artifacts (power or number) so I can't see how it will unduly affect the example deities.

Personally I'm considering a new system that is adaptable to heritage and such (you just change the constants).
In my opinion there should be a separate book containing rules for character wealth and medieval economics and magic's influence on that... Actually, I'm considering taking a half-semester course on mathematical economics, for the processes behind are quite intriguing, and perhaps it'll help me privately as well (-; But I will probably not have the time.

Time is ever against us!

What I'm concerned about is SR and penetration of that. I think there should be som link to CR in this, or else the variations would be too great to estimate and there would only be a slim chance (that only gets slimmer at higher levels) that a random spellcaster would have the chance to penetrate the SR of a creature/character with approximatelly the same CR. Penetration should also have a link, in that case, so that the variations will remain more or less the same as in the first 20-30 levels. Also: if this isn't adressed, a whole lot of feats will be useless at higher levels, at they will only affect the variations marginally. Hopefully this can be solved easily with a link to CR, but I'm not sure... There are very many aspects to account for when considering such a thing, so if there is to be a change, be sure to adress all implications first.

People are really blowing this perceived spell resistance 'problem' out of all proportion.

I remember (back in the old days) when people didn't give Magic Resistance (as it was called back then) a second thought!

Either you couldn't defeat it; you could defeat it or you had a chance of defeating it. Deal with it and move on.

In fact converting 1st Ed. to 3rd Ed. and a Greater God on their home plane only has SR35.

By the way, the 168 feats a fighter of level 200 gets is more than the qualities that the prismatic dragon possesses. Chosen at random, he would probably have a fair chance beating it, considering the fact that the diversity is a great advantage.

Absolutely.

I guess there will some more things to consider, eventually, but I want to congratulate Upper Krust and Anubis on the great work on ECLs. I think it's most vital to have a system like that.

Its certainly vital when dealing with Immortals.

Have you asked WotC about making it official? (The ECL part, that is)

I was thinking of maybe submitting it to Dragon Magazine...?

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Upper_Krust.

Spell Resistance may not have been as big a deal before, and by before we're talking about 1st and 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons. We're thoroughly in the thick of 3rd edition at his point and Spell Resistance can make or break a character, especially with multiclassing becoming so prominent (spellcasters are everywhere now). So I think you’re absolutely wrong to make light of it.

I can't help but notice that you have developed a nasty "if-it's-promblematic-to-my-design-then-I'll-ignore-it-and-keep-pretending-that-my-system-is-perfect" attitude. People are dropping well researched data at your footsteps ("gifts" as I call them) that offer concrete proof indicating where exactly your system breaks down... but you choose to remain oblivious to it, claiming that people have yet to prove your theories wrong. How much more proof do you need?

Take off your blinders! These people have done all the hard work for you! If you have to hit the drafting boards again to make your system work, based on their research, then so be it. Your willful ignorance of late hasn't been flattering. Your latest statement about Spell Resistance only points that fact up.

What you are attempting to balance isn't easy (even through it might have looked that way at first) but "it is" worth doing. Assuming you're not exhausted yet, I don't know why you can't see the forest through the trees here. Your critics are your best allies. Start listening to them again. They're not trying to undo your work. They're trying to shore it up by pointing out the flaws. Now it's up to you. Fix the flaws.

Think of it like this. Why publish an imperfect system? What a waste of time that would be...

 

[-Eä-]

On SR

On wealth system: I think both yours and UK's system of calculating character wealth is broken, although the second part of UK's system CR^3*100 may actually work. ECL^3*100 is plain silly, in my opinion. Given that CR^3*100 is a wealth so that all this wealth may be used on a single item, it is kind of OK (for lower levels). ECL^2*10000 is ok at "lower levels" as well, but both systems break down to quickly in my opinion. In fact, the simple 5*CR^4 breaks down after approximatelly 160 levels, which isn't that bad. The system I'm currently using is one that requires a calculator, but at least the system never breaks down. The more simple way of my system is given by
9375*2^(1/2*(7 + Sqrt(-127 + 8*CR)))
But it isn't more than 87% accurate. However, note that it's 87% or more accurate at any arbritrary CR, say 24 or 65. The system does, however work only from CR 20. I do have a weighted system as well, which is 96% or more accurate at any arbitrary CR, but that system isn't convenient to use, even on a calculator.

I think Anubis has pointed out the best way of doing the SR issue for now. It's both simple and it behaves appropriately at every level. I know that I will be using this system if someone can't come up with a better one, and I think that the last comment "Note, however, that the actual caster level for spells is still the level, so spells wouldn't lose any power under this rule." is paramount to the implications of this, so that the system is relatively balanced at any given encounter.

And UK, you should remember that magic resistance is no way equivalent to spell resistance, as magic resistance was given as a percentage that was randomly rolled for every spell, no matter the opponent (except if you had "Lower Magic Resistance"), so while it was no problem in previous issues, it is a problem now.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Haven't been able to access the boards much over the past few days, hence the delay in responding to some posts.

Wall of Force IS quite nifty, ain't it?

Annoyingly you can't just walk through it anymore.

I do believe that UK's system is way off, as it gives too much wealth of any sort to characters of Levels 100+.

Well firstly 100th-level is going to be almost impossible to fairly attain.

Secondly that figure represents the total wealth attributed from all adventures and exploits. It represents what happens to that +4 suit of armour when you gain that +5 suit. Or that +5 suit of armour when you gain that +5 Heavy Fortitude Armour. You may still have three (or more) suits of armour but only one represents your personal equipment - the others represent wealth.

By the way, UK, there is another reason I do not like the system you proposed. By your system, a character at Level 80 will have the SAME amount of personaly equipment as someone at Level 87, which I think highly inaccurate.

Would the actual value of personal equipment of a character be likely to change between those levels? On average probably not; unless the DM is stocking dungeons and NPCs with just the items you need. Whereas at relatively lower levels characters will not have 'maxed out' their magic item slots with standard DMG items.

Take any of the named NPCs in the back of the ELH. They have very few epic items, if any! (In fact there are only four epic items amongst fifteen characters!) Or look at the first Epic Adventure in Dungeon Magazine (The Storm Lords Keep) there is only one epic item and the PCs can't use it anyway!

Epic Items are rare, very rare!

If you made some special calculation that would take fractions of a CR into account (such as ECL 80=CR 40, ECL 81=CR 40.125, ECL 82=CR 40.250, etc.) for purposes of determining wealth, then your system may be able to work, because the personal equipment numbers would be close to the numbers that I got, if not lower, which would balance things decently as long as there are new feats that can emulate some magical item powers.

Seems a bit pedantic and unneccessary.

Moving on to the SR, I have agreed with Ea from the beginning.

I still haven't decided (one way or the other) whats best.

Take for instance a Level 160 character, who is CR 50. If he tries to cast a spell at a Level 175 character with SR 185, he has almost no chance of breaking through the SR, and only a minimal chance with various feats added.

Telling it like that you make it seem such characters veritably grow on trees!

I'm guessing the 160th-level character will have developed Epic Spells as his frontline attacks rather than relying on standard magic. So Spell Penetration is flexible.

Another level 175 character with the same feats, however, would almost never fail in breaking through the SR. Yet these two are the exact same SR.

Whose to say these characters will have spell resistance 185? Are they both drow for the purposes of this example?

This means the whole system breaks down once you're in triple-digit levels, even though it is still starting to break down around Level 50.

I don't know if the term 'breaking down' is appropriate.

What I have proposed is make all caster level numbers for SR a function of CR instead of Level. Base all SR on the CR of the creature (for instance, make a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon SR 50 or so since it is about CR 45). Next, make the caster level check for penetrating SR based on the CR of the spellcasting class (a Level 100 Wizard is CR 42, so the check would be 1d20+42). For multi-classed characters, take the CR function of only the spellcasting class (for instance, a Ftr50/Wiz100 would still have CR 42 in the spellcasting class, and thus make a check at 1d20+42, regardless of when those wizard levels are gained).

On a side note, I highly suggest doing the same thing to dispel checks. If you don't, a CR 50 Level 160 Wizard would have no chance of dispelling magic cast by a Level 175 Wizard, despite the CR being exactly the same. Basically, make all caster level checks a function of CR, regardless of what the check is for.

Note, however, that the actual caster level for spells is still the level, so spells wouldn't lose any power under this rule.

I'll have a think about it mate (actually in a hurry here to go out - hence the brevity herein).

By the way, UK, I posted a question for you on the Saiyans thread. I'm still trying to perfect things, you know how it is!

I'll try and catch up with the rest of the posts here and elsewhere a bit later today.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Upper_Krust.

Hiya mate!

Spell Resistance may not have been as big a deal before, and by before we're talking about 1st and 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons. We're thoroughly in the thick of 3rd edition at his point and Spell Resistance can make or break a character, especially with multiclassing becoming so prominent (spellcasters are everywhere now). So I think you’re absolutely wrong to make light of it.

I think practically everyone here is making light of epic level characters and what it takes to become one. This subsequently leads to some quixotic balance bugbears.

Spell Resistance (in and of itself) is as prominent as before, however I think Spell Resistance can be exploited to a much greater degree in 3rd Ed.

I can't help but notice that you have developed a nasty "if-it's-promblematic-to-my-design-then-I'll-ignore-it-and-keep-pretending-that-my-system-is-perfect" attitude.

Well I apologise if that seems to be the case; such was never my intention.

That said it doesn't help anyone when people refer to something being broken and then don't explain why. I always try and explain my reasoning and mechanics for any decision.

People are dropping well researched data at your footsteps ("gifts" as I call them) that offer concrete proof indicating where exactly your system breaks down... but you choose to remain oblivious to it, claiming that people have yet to prove your theories wrong. How much more proof do you need?

I'm pretty sure I respond to practically every post addressed towards either myself or my system. I would hope to have noticed any 'concrete proof' laid before me!?

Take off your blinders! These people have done all the hard work for you! If you have to hit the drafting boards again to make your system work, based on their research, then so be it.

Spell Resistance is hardly an all-encompassing dilemma!

Your willful ignorance of late hasn't been flattering. Your latest statement about Spell Resistance only points that fact up.

Actually my previous comments (regarding Spell Resistance) were meant to be 'tongue in cheek' in nature. However I didn't expect someone to overreact just because I neglected to add a smilie in the appropriate place.

What you are attempting to balance isn't easy (even through it might have looked that way at first) but "it is" worth doing. Assuming you're not exhausted yet, I don't know why you can't see the forest through the trees here. Your critics are your best allies. Start listening to them again. They're not trying to undo your work. They're trying to shore it up by pointing out the flaws. Now it's up to you. Fix the flaws.

I fail to see how you can even claim its a flaw of my system!? If such a flaw exists to begin with its WotCs doing.

Think of it like this. Why publish an imperfect system? What a waste of time that would be...

Exactly why I haven't rushed any decision regarding Spell Resistance!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: On SR

Hi Eä mate!

ECL^3*100 is plain silly, in my opinion.

May I ask why?

On wealth system: I think both yours and UK's system of calculating character wealth is broken, although the second part of UK's system CR^3*100 may actually work.

Given that CR^3*100 is a wealth so that all this wealth may be used on a single item, it is kind of OK (for lower levels).

Why should it though!? Thats not what happens at non-epic levels.

ECL^2*10000 is ok at "lower levels" as well, but both systems break down to quickly in my opinion.

10,000 GP at 1st-level
40,000 GP at 2nd
90,000 GP at 3rd
etc.

In fact, the simple 5*CR^4 breaks down after approximatelly 160 levels, which isn't that bad.

How can you say that yet advocate that ECL^3*100 is 'silly'!?

The system I'm currently using is one that requires a calculator, but at least the system never breaks down. The more simple way of my system is given by
9375*2^(1/2*(7 + Sqrt(-127 + 8*CR)))
But it isn't more than 87% accurate. However, note that it's 87% or more accurate at any arbritrary CR, say 24 or 65. The system does, however work only from CR 20. I do have a weighted system as well, which is 96% or more accurate at any arbitrary CR, but that system isn't convenient to use, even on a calculator.

Accurate to what...the personal equipment tables in the DMG/ELH?

I think Anubis has pointed out the best way of doing the SR issue for now. It's both simple and it behaves appropriately at every level. I know that I will be using this system if someone can't come up with a better one, and I think that the last comment "Note, however, that the actual caster level for spells is still the level, so spells wouldn't lose any power under this rule." is paramount to the implications of this, so that the system is relatively balanced at any given encounter.

Possibly. I'm still not convinced this is necessary though. I'll reply in detail to Anubis points in a moment (I was only able to gloss over them earlier).

And UK, you should remember that magic resistance is no way equivalent to spell resistance, as magic resistance was given as a percentage that was randomly rolled for every spell, no matter the opponent (except if you had "Lower Magic Resistance"), so while it was no problem in previous issues, it is a problem now.

Actually you are confusing 2nd Ed. Magic Resistance with 1st Ed. Magic Resistance.

In 1st Ed. Magic Resistance was given against 11th-level casters. With a 5% penalty or bonus for every level above or below 11th.

eg. MR 100% was only 45% effective against 20th-level casters.

MR 75% was 100% effective against 6th-level casters.

In 3rd Ed. SR 31 is equivalent to 1st Ed. MR 100%

By 1st Ed. standards the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon has MR 375%