Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Anubis]

Actually if you had read the recent Epic Level Handbook Chat Night Transcript at Wizards site you would know that in the errata they are going to absorb EAB into BAB (to avoid confusion) and simply cap attacks at #4.

Well, I never pay attention to chats and such, because those aren't official. When I see the errata, then I'll accept it. Personally, I think such a thing would have ups and downs. I would suggest instead to have an Improved Power Attack that allows you BAB and EAB, similar to the new feat that makes Expertise unlimited. (I can't recall the name of that one, though.)

 

[Anubis]

This message was originally about the Penetrate Damage Reduction thing, but I see that Knight Otu got to it before I did.

Anyway, now that that's settled . . .

UK, feel free to use any or all of the feats in my "Big Book of Feats" in the IH. Just make sure to note me (Brandon Harwell) in the credits.

Just a preview, I totally fixed the entire Toughness chain of feats, dealth with death and dying in a way that is far more realistic than the core rules, and I also have a bunch of custom feats that treat KI the correct way (basing it on Con and hp instead of Wis). Go check it out, I've already tested them all for balance, and they come out with a clean bill of health!

Besides, I would like to see some of my work published, even if not in my own work. So like I said, feel free to include them. Whatever we disagree on about wealth and ECL, I think you'll find those feats not only satisfactory, but even perfect.

 

[Knight Otu]

Anubis, I'm pretty sure that there is only a feat that allows you to ignore the +5/-5 limitation on Expertise, nothing more. Are you thinking of this one?

 

[Anubis]

Anubis, I'm pretty sure that there is only a feat that allows you to ignore the +5/-5 limitation on Expertise, nothing more. Are you thinking of this one?

Yep, that's what I said. The new feat that takes away the limit on Expertise. I can't remember the name of the feat, though.

 

[Knight Otu]

I believe that would be Improved Expertise, and if I'm not totally mistaken, it is still limited by BAB. (Not having the book in front of my, I'm only 60% sure, though)

 

[Xeriar]

Hi Xeriar mate!

That rule seems somewhat irrelevant considering you could likely give yourself permanent Spell Resistance 1 using a wish (or two?) then start taking the feats.

He gets no magic items - no magic period. If you start throwing this type of thing into the situation, the Prismatic Dragon has to get equal benefit from this type of thing, and it spirals into giving him magic items anyway.

Plus, the dragon could wish the original away as well.

I must have missed where it specifically says this? Can you help me out?

In the PHB - unless a feat specifically says it may be taken more than once, it may only be taken once.

Oddly enough, this arguement is about the fighter - the monk or even the ranger would have fewer issues of this type.

I am curious to hear how it protects itself versus critical hits? Not saying it couldn't be done, just interested to hear how?

The spell Iron Body, in the PHB, does it, albeit with penalties. There are other spells from less official sources as well, of course. By rights, the dragon should have an item granting it the same properties that Heavy Fortification does (as per armors in the DMG).

- Mirror Image is defeated by a Spot Check of 80.

I was just listing an example - it is one of a number of spells, blink, etc.

- Maze won't kill the Fighter just delay the inevitable.

It lets the dragon escape, and assuming it did not know such things as required already, cast:

- Legend Lore: not exactly a spell to cast in combat and regardless won't kill the Fighter, simply lets the dragon know why it should run away.

In order to let the dragon prepare itself spell-wise, and cast:

- Imprisonment requires a touch attack.

Which the fighter, even at level 200, is going to have a hard time being prepared for. The dragon gets to rack up its attack bonus to ridiculously high levels, with spells like True Strike and Limited wish alone, its attack bonus starts at +78 before strength modifiers, +20 from true strike, +20 from limited wish, +31 from strength, in addition to whatever other minor buffing spells it may choose to use on itself, and other feats/epic abilities.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I hope your revisions are better than the others proposed here, ridiculous things such as a flat save for half or that are UNPRECEDENTED by the rules such as limits of 10 hp/level, limiting the damage of a save to not go below 4 hp, and other such silly things.

Maybe something such as, for Heal, restores you to 240 hp or full, whichever is lower. For Harm, perhaps reduce you to 1 hp or deal 240 damage, whichever is less.

Just PLEASE don't do one of those ridiculous set hp per level formulas or ones that limit by number AND damage. The above would be my personal solution. I once advocated a simple saving throw "for half damage or 100 damage, whichever is less" with no limit to heal, but seeing now how many hp Epic characters can have, I see that there is a need to limit it.

I essentially want to get Heal and Harm balanced with similar spells.

Since, as you and I both know, unlike realistic elements, unrealistic elements (such as magic) can be determined by balance alone!

I am toying with the idea of 1d8/level - if we apply that to the reverse of Mass Heal (Mass Harm) at 8th-level you get something akin to Horrid Wilting but without the saving throw (though admittedly the range/area is less). So that might work?

I am also considering a Fast Healing (9th-level) spell (and its reverse which I hope to name something other than Fast Harming) that lets you heal 1/level/round for an amount of time I have not yet decided upon.

UK, feel free to use any or all of the feats in my "Big Book of Feats" in the IH.

Hey! Thanks!

At one stage I had somewhere close to 200 feats in the IH but I have either amalgamated them into various divine powers or seen identical feats detailed within the ELH.

eg. They have Spectral Strike and I had the exact same feat called Blind Faith.

So I am not sure if theres a place for feats (in any great numbers at least) but I may change my mind if I see anything that tickles my fancy.

Just make sure to note me (Brandon Harwell) in the credits.

Hey you were already going into my credits for helping me with the whole CR/ECL matter.

Just a preview, I totally fixed the entire Toughness chain of feats, dealth with death and dying in a way that is far more realistic than the core rules, and I also have a bunch of custom feats that treat KI the correct way (basing it on Con and hp instead of Wis). Go check it out, I've already tested them all for balance, and they come out with a clean bill of health!

Sounds interesting.

I checked the thread out before - I seem to recall a large number of feats you were using in your DragonballZ antics.

Besides, I would like to see some of my work published, even if not in my own work.

I know what you mean - I'd like to see some of my work published too!

So like I said, feel free to include them.

I appreciate the offer mate. I'll get back to you.

Whatever we disagree on about wealth and ECL,

I think you'll find those feats not only satisfactory, but even perfect.

At the very least your enthusiasm always brings a smile to my face mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Xeriar mate!

He gets no magic items - no magic period.

Well you don't get to 200th-level living in a bubble!

However, I'll humour you - since otherwise you don't even have a whisker of a chance.

But I initially stated 'with no magic items', thats not to say he doesn't own them; simply that he doesn't have them with him.

If you start throwing this type of thing into the situation, the Prismatic Dragon has to get equal benefit from this type of thing, and it spirals into giving him magic items anyway.

Seemingly you are already giving the Prismatic Dragon 'equal benefit' with its immunity to critical hits.

Plus, the dragon could wish the original away as well.

Really!? How would it beat his Spell Resistance to do so!?

In the PHB - unless a feat specifically says it may be taken more than once, it may only be taken once.

Thanks.

Oddly enough, this arguement is about the fighter - the monk or even the ranger would have fewer issues of this type.

Have you extrapolated a 200th-level Monk or Ranger - they are just as frightening!

There are other spells from less official sources as well, of course.

Naturally. In that case there may be feats from other sources too!

By rights, the dragon should have an item granting it the same properties that Heavy Fortification does (as per armors in the DMG).

In my estimation non-standard items levels out with the Fighter having Spell Resistance.

Which the fighter, even at level 200, is going to have a hard time being prepared for. The dragon gets to rack up its attack bonus to ridiculously high levels, with spells like True Strike and Limited wish alone, its attack bonus starts at +78 before strength modifiers, +20 from true strike, +20 from limited wish, +31 from strength, in addition to whatever other minor buffing spells it may choose to use on itself, and other feats/epic abilities.

I'm not really concerned about the dragons attacks.

Seemingly Imprisonment is the only shadow of a chance (provided the Fighter doesn't have Spell Resistance) the dragon has.

If we start buffing the dragon with non-standard items AND disallow the Fighter any Spell Resistance then hes seemingly going to succumb to the Imprisonment spell* before he can effectively eliminate the dragon.

*which doesn't actually kill the Fighter lets add!

Any other way you slice it the Fighter wins, devoid of any magic items. Of course the initial supposition was that even with their items (assigned under the auspices of my equipment formula) a 200th-level character could NEVER defeat a Great Prismatic Wyrm - something I have categorically proven to be inaccurate.

 

[Xeriar]

Hi Xeriar mate!

Well you don't get to 200th-level living in a bubble!

Well, you don't get to 200th level much at all, period . It wasn't my number, anyway. A hundredth-level character would be more definate.

However, I'll humour you - since otherwise you don't even have a whisker of a chance.

If given nonstandard items, the dragon has different chances. Dropping the fighter in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and preventing his access to food or water for one

But I initially stated 'with no magic items', thats not to say he doesn't own them; simply that he doesn't have them with him.

This was Anubis's deal. You kinda hafta construct the fighter to beat the Dragon, rather than have just any odd assortmant of feats.

Seemingly you are already giving the Prismatic Dragon 'equal benefit' with its immunity to critical hits.

Not exactly - if we're to assume that said dragon has his treasure, or with his auto-sorcerer levels knows a spell that grants him immunity to critical hits.

Really!? How would it beat his Spell Resistance to do so!?

Not all spells are affected by spell resistance - Maze, etc.

Especially as the spell is targetting spell resistance itself Wishes can restore Dead Magic Feilds in FR - why do they need to be subject to SR?

Have you extrapolated a 200th-level Monk or Ranger - they are just as frightening!

The Ranger is nasty because he can get around the critical hits, and has that auto-bane feat. The Monk is just... wrong.

Naturally. In that case there may be feats from other sources too!

True dat, I think this would be a more applicable source of the original spell resistance, myself.

In my estimation non-standard items levels out with the Fighter having Spell Resistance.

Without the ability to deal critical hits, the fighter and the dragon are at an impasse - they still can damage eachother, but the damage is meaningless. In order to damage the dragon, the fighter has to sacrifice too much of his BAB to hit often enough, and of course whatever damage the dragon's breath deals the poor sap is going to get healed in short order anyway.

I'm not really concerned about the dragons attacks.

The dragon has a vast array of abilities available to it, I don't think the fighter could say, both spot illusions and break through a Wall of Force, and all the other neat tricks the dragon could pull off...

Seemingly Imprisonment is the only shadow of a chance (provided the Fighter doesn't have Spell Resistance) the dragon has.

Wall of Force, pemenance, then let him starve to death

If we start buffing the dragon with non-standard items AND disallow the Fighter any Spell Resistance then hes seemingly going to succumb to the Imprisonment spell* before he can effectively eliminate the dragon.

He doesn't need non-standard spells or items, jjust Iron Body.

*which doesn't actually kill the Fighter lets add!

Nope, unfortunately, but it gives the dragon an eternity to prepare something the fighter can't deal with.

Any other way you slice it the Fighter wins, devoid of any magic items. Of course the initial supposition was that even with their items (assigned under the auspices of my equipment formula) a 200th-level character could NEVER defeat a Great Prismatic Wyrm - something I have categorically proven to be inaccurate.

I did not make that claim - but you made it out to be far easier than it would actually be.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Re: 200lv

I hope your revisions are better than the others proposed here, ridiculous things such as a flat save for half or that are UNPRECEDENTED by the rules such as limits of 10 hp/level, limiting the damage of a save to not go below 4 hp, and other such silly things.

This attitude really annoys me - why does something being UNPRECEDENTED (nice use of caps) make it unworthy of consideration? Everything's unprecedented until it's been tried. But if you want to stick close to 'precedent', simply apply the DMG's own by-level damage caps for clerical spells, so Harm cast at 6th level does max 15d6 dmg as per pg 96 DMG.
Personally I think an uncapped 10hp/level would work fine, UNPRECEDENTED though it is.