Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

So I'd have to replace my stats and set them to certain points? I'll go with your way, even though it gives more power. That Divine Array is just plain silly.

Yep.

Save, eh? Wouldn't a Will save be better to keep in line with the other spells in that category, and so that Heal can actually work on undead? (They automatically make Fort saves against anything that doesn't destroy.)

Also, would it be a save for half damage, a certain amount, what?

I'll look into it and get back to you.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello!

I see! The "effective caster levels" count as actual levels for determining ECL, right? Gotcha.

Yep.

I usually agree with you, but I think I must disagree on this point. I don't think there is ANY way a Level 1 Dv0 could defeat a Level 15. What powers does that Quasi-Deity have that could really hurt the Fighter? The Fighter is likely to kill the Quasi-Deity in a single hit!

Oh ye of little faith.

Have you looked at the 1st-level Fighter and the 15th-level Fighter? +3 weapon vs. DR35/+4

Hmmm . . . That seems to give the deities a bit too much credit . . .

Perhaps you should consider:

Quasi-Deity (DvR 0): ECL +10
Demigod (DvR 1): ECL +20
ECL +4 per each subsequent DvR

That would the deities on pretty strict levels while not giving them too much credit, and I think anything above Level 10 would obliterate a Level 1 DvR 0 Quasi-Deity. Also remember that CR is based on four characters, not one.

I don't agree. But I would be happy to discuss your evidence?

On top of that, it gives a set ECL +20 for each Divine Class (Demigod, Lesser Deity, etc.)

I'm pretty happy with the revised mechanism. Though I'll continue to run some tests.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Request

Even without Improved Metamagic, Empower Spell is only +2 Spell Levels, so it doesn't have much effect.

Actually I think it has a significant effect.

The amount of power is still ridiculously insane.

Maybe. But damage is going to be halved.

All Improved Metamagic does is make feats like Energy Admixture, Intensify Spell, Enhance Spell, Quicken Spell, and Multispell useful. They are pretty much useless without Improved Metamagic because they're all but unusuble until EXTREMELY high levels.

Quicken Spell is certainly not useless.

Empower Spell is still ridiculously strong without Improved Metamagic.

I think its pretty balanced.

Also add Enlarge Spell to the ridiculous power category when it's stacked, because that would allow Horrid Wilting to obliterate entire armies!

Can Enlarge be stacked? Does it mention this in the ELH?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Buddha mate!

Quasi-Deities, of which Gaedynn Aengrilor in one, are Divine Rank 0 according to page 25 of Deities & Demigods.

Firstly the confusion is mainly down to D&Dgs sloppiness.

However the proof is in the pudding.

1. All Quasi-deities in the book have those Immunities.

2. If we look under Immunities (page 26 actually).

Deities of Rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank

However, I believe what seems straightforward is actually WotC confusing themselves with a missprint. I proffer that it should read Divine Rank 0.

They start the next paragraph 'Deities of Rank 1 or higher...'. Now why start the second paragraph the same as the first it makes no sense whatsoever. Why use an entirely new paragraph. There is no logical reason why that needs two seperate paragraphs if they are both supposedly addressing Divine Rank 1.

3. Initial Divinity (Quasi-deity) is actually based on the Solar - who also has those Immunities.

 

[Buddha the DM]

Still the text reads Divine Rank 1 or higher, and not Divine Rank 0. Therefore a Quasi-Deity (DvR 0) does not have those abilities.

If WotC fixes this in an errata then I might be inclined to agree.

Besides how do you figure that Initial Divinity was based upon the Solar?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Buddha mate!

Still the text reads Divine Rank 1 or higher, and not Divine Rank 0. Therefore a Quasi-Deity (DvR 0) does not have those abilities.

Yet all the Quasi-deity examples do.

If WotC fixes this in an errata then I might be inclined to agree.

Thats certainly your prerogative.

However I am not waiting for WotC errata though.

Just like I didn't with Challenge Ratings. Nor with the broken Annihilating Strike Salient Divine Ability. Nor with Harm. Nor with the idea that deities should function within Anti Magic. etc ad infinitum

Besides how do you figure that Initial Divinity was based upon the Solar?

Too many similarities to be a coincidence.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Xun Huo vs. Orcus

I post on it quite a bit. How is it a bad example?

Seriously, tell me. How is it a bad example? Explain. I'm willing to listen.

1) You are using house rules (to determine CRs, for example) from a "product" that hasn't even seen the light of day, and isn't even part of the core rules.

2) Keep reading the thread.

3) Throwing a 40th level character against a CR32 (roughly) creature is not what I would consider impressive, nor would I even consider it valid to your argument.

4) Keep reading the thread.

5) Even if the house rules you are using to determine CR supposedly "work", it doesn't matter in the slightest. You put forth an argument on the D&D Rules board, thus your entire argument is invalidated by the fact that you did not even use the core rules. I could easily prove that my 1st level commoner could wipe the floor with Orcus if I use house rules as well.

6) Keep reading the thread.

7) Make sure you understand how empower actually works before you put forth an argument in the attempt to debunk it.

8) Anything with an Intelligence greater than 5, that has the ability to teleport, will instantly "get outta dodge" at the first sign of an a$$ whoopin'.

9) Using the example of a God versus a Demon is just as effective as using a Balor against a Kobold. Don't bother. The outcome of the fight is predetermined.

10) Try not to base your "rules" argument on an article about CRs being "broken" that were published in a free PDF by the author of a product that hasn't even been released and completely conflicts with the published rules (no insult intended to "you know who").

11) Though the fact that you missed the vast difference in cost between a +40 skill bonus and a +30 skill bonus is small and unimportant in and off itself, it shows that you did not give your argument "your all". It is one of the many small flaws that has been pointed out.

12) I wasn't aware that Orcus exhisted in a campaign setting with Iaijutsu Focus.

13) In regards to the stacking of metamagic feats, the rules have already been set forth. In a rules discussion, Empower stacks. Period. There is no other argument here. It was designed to stack. It was meant to stack. It was written to stack. It was clarified to stack.

Other than that, your argument wasn't that bad.

 

[Impeesa]

kreynolds: Don't be knocking U_K's alternate CR system. All it means is that the higher a foe's level gets, the more it's true that level != CR. i.e., a 20th level fighter is probably far too difficult a fight for a party of 5th level adventurers (being an EL +15 encounter), but a 115th level fighter is barely a fight to a party of 100th level adventurers despite still being, technically, EL +15.

As for the example in question.... um... it's too late over here for me to try and figure out what anyone was thinking or what the problem was.... So I'll just direct your attention to the first paragraph, and point out that all of Krusty's thoughts on the messed-up-edness of the CR system at high levels really do make sense if you meditate long enough.

Stolen from the 2003 WotC catalog:
http://members.shaw.ca/parkerw/upcoming.jpg

--Impeesa--

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Xun Huo vs. Orcus

Currently not sure if this will even work - I'm having some staccato internet problem.

Hi Impeesa mate!

kreynolds: Don't be knocking U_K's alternate CR system. All it means is that the higher a foe's level gets, the more it's true that level != CR. i.e., a 20th level fighter is probably far too difficult a fight for a party of 5th level adventurers (being an EL +15 encounter), but a 115th level fighter is barely a fight to a party of 100th level adventurers despite still being, technically, EL +15.

Don't worry mate. kreynolds wasn't challenging my rules*, just their validity in a 'straight up' D&D Rules discussion.

*Otherwise there would have been an Immortal Smackdown in progress.

As for the example in question.... um... it's too late over here for me to try and figure out what anyone was thinking or what the problem was.... So I'll just direct your attention to the first paragraph, and point out that all of Krusty's thoughts on the messed-up-edness of the CR system at high levels really do make sense if you meditate long enough.

I still favour my revised CR rules. As mentioned above.

Stolen from the 2003 WotC catalog:
http://members.shaw.ca/parkerw/upcoming.jpg

 

[Upper_Krust]

Test

Having problems posting that message here.

Its over at the WotC boards:

http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=201;t=000431

Someone feel free to copy and paste the message here - I don't seem to be able to do so.