Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Anubis]

Here is UK's post from the other board:

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Hi kreynolds mate!

For the purposes of a D&D Rules discussion Anubis did indeed make the mistake of using a number of unofficial rules:

(My) Challenge Rating System
(My) Apotheosis System
(Creature Catalogue's) Orcus

Additionally the fight was already stacked in his favour anyway, and Orcus obviously wasn't having his best day.

Also given the propensity for Epic one hit kills, a fair fight (even CRs) probably wouldn't have shown much wrong with the Empower Spell Metamagic Feat.

A better example would have been two player characters one of which (the spellcaster) being 4 CR less than the other. Then still proving they were dead in one damaging spell.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
1) You are using house rules (to determine CRs, for example) from a "product" that hasn't even seen the light of day, and isn't even part of the core rules.

5) Even if the house rules you are using to determine CR supposedly "work", it doesn't matter in the slightest. You put forth an argument on the D&D Rules board, thus your entire argument is invalidated by the fact that you did not even use the core rules. I could easily prove that my 1st level commoner could wipe the floor with Orcus if I use house rules as well.

10) Try not to base your "rules" argument on an article about CRs being "broken" that were published in a free PDF by the author of a product that hasn't even been released and completely conflicts with the published rules (no insult intended to "you know who") .
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Since you are really just treading the same water here I'll lump these together.

While naturally I agree that my CR system should not be used with regards D&D Rules discussions - it works infinitely better than WotCs methods at high levels: a point I have already proven as fact.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
(no insult intended to "you know who")
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None taken mate.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
2) Keep reading the thread.

4) Keep reading the thread.

6) Keep reading the thread.
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I think once would have made the point mate. Be nice.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
3) Throwing a 40th level character against a CR32 (roughly) creature is not what I would consider impressive, nor would I even consider it valid to your argument.
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In principle yes, however the difference between the two protagonists was only about 5 CR. Albeit stacked in Anubis' characters favour.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
7) Make sure you understand how empower actually works before you put forth an argument in the attempt to debunk it.
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A lot of people seem to be forgetting the use of Improved Metamagic, but I don't like addressing D&D Rules unless I have all the material at my disposal (I should get the ELH later today).


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
8) Anything with an Intelligence greater than 5, that has the ability to teleport, will instantly "get outta dodge" at the first sign of an a$$ whoopin'.
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I can't imagine the 'gettin outa Dodge' approach is how WotC playtesters balance ideas and solve issues.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
9) Using the example of a God versus a Demon is just as effective as using a Balor against a Kobold. Don't bother. The outcome of the fight is predetermined.
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I had already made this point to Anubis. I thought perhaps 3 33rd-level Demiliches (a Cleric, a Psionicist and a Wizard) would have been a more likely summons.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
11) Though the fact that you missed the vast difference in cost between a +40 skill bonus and a +30 skill bonus is small and unimportant in and off itself, it shows that you did not give your argument "your all". It is one of the many small flaws that has been pointed out.
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Considering the amount of errata WotC put forward I am sure you would volunteer Anubis the same courtesy.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
12) I wasn't aware that Orcus exhisted in a campaign setting with Iaijutsu Focus.
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This seems somewhat pedantic. You can't say that Orcus doesn't exist in such a campaign setting.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
13) In regards to the stacking of metamagic feats, the rules have already been set forth. In a rules discussion, Empower stacks. Period. There is no other argument here. It was designed to stack. It was meant to stack. It was written to stack. It was clarified to stack.
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While I agree with your above point.

In a rules discussion a 100th-level character is (supposedly, according to WotC) equal to x16 92nd-level characters. Since I already proved this is utter nonsense it quoshes the WotC rule infallibility your above statement emphasised.


quote:
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Originally posted by kreynolds
Other than that, your argument wasn't that bad.
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Like a number of people in that thread I believe the problem stems from the Improved Metamagic Feat rather than the Empower Spell Metamagic Feat.

So in a roundabout way, Anubis was justified to address the point he did; he just went about it the wrong way for the purposes of a 'meat and potatoes' D&D Rules discussion.

[ August 20, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Upper_Krust ]

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"Stand fast at the Gates of Dis"

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From: Belfast, Northern Ireland, U.K. | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

The Serge7
Member
Member # 98081



posted August 20, 2002 06:27 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Upper_Krust:
Sorry for the inconvenience.
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UK... Isn't this supposed to be on an EN World thread?

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Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven.

 

[Buddha the DM]

Where is your revised CR system U_K? Do you have one for ECL mods as well?

 

[kreynolds]

While naturally I agree that my CR system should not be used with regards D&D Rules discussions - it works infinitely better than WotCs methods at high levels: a point I have already proven as fact.

And this make a difference...how? I never challenged your CR system. What I did do, however, is point out that a core rules argument based upon your rules is completely baseless. Sure, if we were talking about Dungeons & Upper_Krust, then it would apply. But, since we are talking about Dungeons & Dragons, well, that's a whole different story.

I didn't mean to imply that your system doesn't work, when in fact, I've never even looked at. But I don't need to either. I know that it doesn't follow the core rules, thus it is not a valid referrence in a rules discussion. That's all I meant.

I merely brought this up to point out why Anubis's argument was quickly and summarily debunked.

None taken mate.

Cool.

I think once would have made the point mate.

Probably.

In principle yes, however the difference between the two protagonists was only about 5 CR. Albeit stacked in Anubis' characters favour.

Do you mean according to your CR rules? If so, see previous answers.

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the use of Improved Metamagic

Possibly. But that's a whole different discussion.

I can't imagine the 'gettin outa Dodge' approach is how WotC playtesters balance ideas and solve issues.

Huh? What does that have to do with anything? Everyone has their bad days, when a fight just goes wrong. In the case of monsters, this bad day is usually the DM not quite being with it and not quite being in a strategic frame of mind. In any case, a creature that is having trouble in a fight will cut and run, and said creature would most assuredly cut and run when it is faced with an opponent 8 CRs higher than itself.

This isn't a playtesting issue. I pointed out the teleportation because the example was plainly rediculous. If any creature is faced with someone ludicrously more powerful than they are, and they can teleport, they will.

I had already made this point to Anubis. I thought perhaps 3 33rd-level Demiliches (a Cleric, a Psionicist and a Wizard) would have been a more likely summons.

Perhaps.

Considering the amount of errata WotC put forward I am sure you would volunteer Anubis the same courtesy.

Absolutely not. There was nothing errated in regards to skill bonuses. The ELH plainly states that any skill bonus of +31 or higher is an epic bonus, thus the cost of the bonus is multiplied by 10. There was no errata released. There was no errata required. It was correct in the printing. Why should I volunteer him courtesy in regards to errata when errata doesn't even apply in this situation.

This seems somewhat pedantic. You can't say that Orcus doesn't exist in such a campaign setting.

I just did. Orcus is not mentioned anywhere in OA or Rokugan. He doesn't exhist there unless you put him there. I was merely pointing this out.

In a rules discussion a 100th-level character is (supposedly, according to WotC) equal to x16 92nd-level characters. Since I already proved this is utter nonsense it quoshes the WotC rule infallibility your above statement emphasised.

I never said WotC rules were infallible. Not at all. Besides, that comment was in regards to Empower Spell, not CR. I doesn't matter if you if you think your rules are better, because bottom line, your rules don't apply to this discussion in any way shape or form. If your rules do in fact work better, then great, I hope to see them one day. So, it doesn't make the slightest difference what you did or didn't prove about the core rules. Anubis started a rules discussion, and your rules don't belong in such a discussion. Why? Because they're house rules. They may be good house rules, but they're house rules none-the-less. End of story.

So in a roundabout way, Anubis was justified to address the point he did

I never said he wasn't justified. I just said his argument was completely baseless in regards to the rules. It was fatally flawed from the very beginning.

he just went about it the wrong way for the purposes of a 'meat and potatoes' D&D Rules discussion.

Exactly.

P.S. This was a really pain of a post to reply to. Phew! That was a lot of work!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks Anubis mate!

That message simply would not post. I still don't understand it.



But at least we got that sorted out.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Buddha mate!

Where is your revised CR system U_K?

You got the main crux of the change the other day.

Quasi-deity power is now +14 ECL

Divine Rank 1 (which incorporates Quasi-deity power) is now +24 ECL

All subsequent Divine Ranks are (still) +4 ECL.

Do you have one for ECL mods as well?

I'll consider one for the IH. But no hard and fast rule presents itself at the minute, and I am not going to tackle this matter on a case for case basis.

 

[Anubis]

Hi Buddha mate!



You got the main crux of the change the other day.

Quasi-deity power is now +14 ECL

Divine Rank 1 (which incorporates Quasi-deity power) is now +24 ECL

All subsequent Divine Ranks are (still) +4 ECL.



I'll consider one for the IH. But no hard and fast rule presents itself at the minute, and I am not going to tackle this matter on a case for case basis.

I can help you there, UK.

Two characters of equal power are of equal CR, correct?

In that case, simply use your ECL system from your CR modifications for the ECL modifications! Simple!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Useless machine or server won't let me post again.

If you are reading this it must mean that the size of the post is a factor.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

I can help you there, UK.

Two characters of equal power are of equal CR, correct?

In that case, simply use your ECL system from your CR modifications for the ECL modifications! Simple!

That bits easy but the point Buddha was making was that ECLs for player characters and non-player characters mean different things.

 

[Anubis]

Hello mate!



That bits easy but the point Buddha was making was that ECLs for player characters and non-player characters mean different things.

That's my point, though . . . MAKE THEM THE SAME. It's easy, and it levels the playing field between PCs and NPCs! That in turn adds challenge, especially at higher levels!

I've thought about the ECL subject long and hard, and have seen all the variations out there. None of them make any sense, however. Think about it:

Let's take the most popular example out there, the orge. In the DMG, the ECL for an ogre is +5, even though the ogre's CR is 2. Yet there have been rumors of an INCREASE in the ogre's ECL up to +8, which is just plain silly!

Consider for a moment that (at least on Levels 1-20) a creature of a certain CR is supposed to be a "challenge" (meaning that the fight will take up 25% of the party's resources) for four characters of a similar level. That means that an ogre, at CR 2, is a "challenge" for four characters at Level 2.

Also consider, however, that characters of a certain level have a CR equal to their level, meaning a Level 2 character has a CR of 2. This means that, effectively, one character of a certain level is a "challenge" for four characters of an equal level.

That would mean that a duel between two characters of equal power would exhaust both combatants, one being defeated and the other barely winning. Reasonable enough.

Since a character's level equals its CR, why is it, then, that an ogre, at CR 2, which is suppose to be equal to a Level 2 character, is actually ECL +5, or even ECL +8? That contradicts the standard in EVERY SINGLE WAY.

As such, a creature's ECL should, simply put, be the same as its CR. Think about it: with an ECL of +5, an ogre would have to be Level 6 to have ANY levels. Would an ogre be able to hold his own with four other Level 6 characters, however? If you test this, you will quickly find that the ogre will get killed very quickly by challengers of CR 6, that any other Level 6 character could handle well enough. Also, an ogre in a duel with a Level 5 character would get killed VERY quickly. One fireball, one full attack, you have a dead ogre, whereas a duel between two Level 6 characters would be very close indeed.

That said, it is also easy to rule that the way you determine Epic CR as per your rules, is also the way you determine ECL! That means if a creature is ECL +50 for purpoes of determining CR, then it is ECL +50 for purposed of determining level!

Test it, you'll see it works perfectly! I have tried many different tests of this, and it has worked beautifully every single time!

That's something that you could put into the Immortal's Handbook, along with a comprehensive set of rules for determining ECL and CR, that would set your book as THE source for Divinity AND Epic gaming, along with making it THE single best source to find suitable "fixes" in the Core Rules!

 

[kreynolds]

Since a character's level equals its CR, why is it, then, that an ogre, at CR 2, which is suppose to be equal to a Level 2 character, is actually ECL +5, or even ECL +8? That contradicts the standard in EVERY SINGLE WAY.

Anubis, the reason that an Ogre, at CR 2, has an ECL higher than it's CR is because an Ogre, at CR 2, is meant to be faced against a party of 4 players, all of them at 2nd level, thus a party level of 2. CRs assume that an average party, of four players, will be facing the monster. That's why they have higher ECLs.

Now, I have no doubt that an alternate CR system could be devised (not by me) that would represent a creature's CR on a one on one basis, thus making it equal to a character who's character level is as proportionately powerful to the creature. It would certainly make playing monsters easier.