Upper_Krust: Fix This

WarDragon

First Post
Phantom Llama said:
There are lots of 'quodruplings' in the Portfolios chapter. It's spelt 'quadrupled'.

There are still lots of 'enchantment bonuses'. Enchantment is a school of magic relating to mind control. Enhancement is the bonus type. The first example that springs to mind is the Object portfolio, at least back in the 2.2 version.
The Beastiary is riddled with this mistake, as well.
 

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CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
Upper_Krust said:
I fixed it in the print version. ;)

Hey UK, long time no see (I've been busy). Any news on when the print edition might see the light of day? The website says 2007 -- can I expect December, or is the website outdated?
 

CRGreathouse said:

Hey CRGreathouse mate! :D

CRGreathouse said:
long time no see (I've been busy).

Good to have you back! :)

CRGreathouse said:
Any news on when the print edition might see the light of day?

As soon as I know, you guys will know.

CRGreathouse said:
The website says 2007 -- can I expect December, or is the website outdated?

All I have been told at this point is 2007. So I don't have more to go on at this point, sorry.
 

WarDragon

First Post
The Chaos portfolio has a "Greater Taint of Chaos," but no "Taint of Chaos."

The Disease portfolio has the old Quasi-deity power in the middle of its Appearance description. Also, its Cosmic Imperfections refer to Wisdom and Strength, instead of Stoicism.

In Entropy's Temporal Vulnerability weakness, you should specify that only negative effects are multiplied. As-is, they'd get more benefit from a Haste spell.

The description of Doombringer under the Fear portfolio is wrong. Under Redivivus, it should be "enemy's," not "enemies."

In the Double Fertility Demeanor, it should be "more," not "mors." And why is it connected to fire?

I really doubt you meant to give Good deities the Poisonous Blood effect.

Should the names of the Knowledge powers really include "Wise," since that's a separate portfolio? And shouldn't Polymath be a free or standard action, not always active?

The Law portfolio lists "Greater Taint of Law" twice, with no "Taint of Law."

Love's powers also mention Wisdom, which has to be wrong.

Luck's "Blur" power says "as displacement." What does the summoned creatures' luck bonus apply to?

Mountain's Legendary Constitution refers to Dexterity.

What does a Revenge Prophet's Favored Enemy bonus apply to?

On Science, you have Aversion to Magic as both a strength and a weakness. Seems odd.

Why does Secrets penalize the most important ability score for its favored class?

Stoicism lists Total Wisdom as an Old One power, but the description is correct.

The X Body/Mind/Spirit/Soul line of abilities are still confused as to what the bonus is equal to (which are divine rank, and which are ability mod?).

I just noticed there's nothing that says how you determine what Animal Companion benefits a Dragon Companion gets.
 

WarDragon

First Post
You still don't list which ability score sets the DC for effects... it says "key ability bonus," but we have no way to determine what that is.
 

dante58701

Banned
Banned
You still need to do something about divine template abilities and divine abilities, cosmic abilities, ect. not having the same wording for abilities that have precisely the same names. It's very confusing. Now that my gaming group is getting more into the more powerful games...the sidereals are posing a problem with this especially.

For example...Cosmic Firmament. It is available to all sidereals and above, but it's functions are vastly different when you look at the templates and compare them to the divine abilities.

Also...prerequisites for various abilities...such as Evil Eye, dont seem to be included in the templates, although they really should be. Are you going to note this somewhere...that prerequisites are also acquired automatically?

Also...the ordering of the Dimensional Mastery abilities isnt alphabetical...is this intentional (by dimensions) or is it just out of order?

Fecundity...can we have it back...it's essential to nature deities. Especially since many nature deities should be able to make nature pristine with their merest presence.

Now that ur getting closer to the grindstone, Im gonna try to get some of these errors cleared up by mentioning them before they are forgotten.

;)
 
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paradox42

First Post
dante58701 said:
Also...prerequisites for various abilities...such as Evil Eye, dont seem to be included in the templates, although they really should be. Are you going to note this somewhere...that prerequisites are also acquired automatically?
Actually, technically templates don't need to include prerequisite abilities with granted powers, because there's precedent with feats. Many times in the various Monster Manuals, you will see a monster that doesn't meet a prerequisite for a particular feat, but is specifically given the feat as a bonus feat from its race. Bonus feats don't need to meet prerequisites, because they're intrinsic to the race somehow. I'd suggest that the divine/cosmic/even transcendental powers granted by these Portfolios essentially become intrinsic to the Immortal's "race," whatever you take that to mean, and thus don't necessarily need to also grant prerequisites in addition to the powers they would thus qualify for.

However, in such case I would recommend that UK explicitly note in the POrtfolio chapter that powers granted by Portfolios- as long as they're "in theme" for the particular Portfolio in question- don't need to meet prerequisites. This is also a way one might avoid worrying about getting certain powers in Portfolios with the ability score weaknesses when a deity is likely to be disqualified on the basis of ability score because of said weakness. If the Portfolio itself grants it, the prerequisite is irrelevant.
 

U_K! While I might have missed something, it appears that You already found the solution for the "broken-ness" of Legendary [Ability Score]! In fact, the solution was written before you even finished chapter 4. Virtual Size categories are only granted by natural bonuses to strength. Just make Legendary [Ability Score] a Supernatural Ability. Then we can have our crazy 1000 strength barbarians without also giving the Akashic Library a heart attack every time we flex our Anti-matter-powered muscles.

Oh, and Absolute (the Omnific power) still doesn't have a benefit listed. It still says "You gain all the [unfinished sentence]..."
 

thompsja

First Post
Some clarification on the Epic Bestiary, please

Many of the monsters have "divine fire" damage. Where is this defined?

Secondly, the power levels have Disciples, Priests, others, with Old Ones, First Ones and Time Lords. I presume that all of these details will be fully delineated in Ascension?

I haven't read most of these threads... there seems to be a lot of background and assumed knowledge in the PDF, and it so the material isn't always as clear as I'd like it.

For example: the Kosmos seems to assume stars and planets, given the size catagories - Mega and Giga get to planetary sizes, and the Neutronium material, mined from neutron stars.

This may not make into a book, but is it possible for more background it to be put on the website?

I'm awaiting purchasing Ascension.
 

Axolotl

First Post
thompsja said:
Secondly, the power levels have Disciples, Priests, others, with Old Ones, First Ones and Time Lords. I presume that all of these details will be fully delineated in Ascension?
Yes, they are.
 

Hello there thompsja! :)

Welcome to the boards! :D

thompsja said:
Many of the monsters have "divine fire" damage. Where is this defined?

It should be defined in the text itself.

For instance, in the Abomination, Amilictli entry it does define divine electricity as half divine damage/half electricity damage.

I am sure I must similarly explain divine power somewhere in the text, if not I apologise. However, there is no great mystery surrounding it - it just means half the effect is divine damage and the other half is of the appropriate energy type.

thompsja said:
Secondly, the power levels have Disciples, Priests, others, with Old Ones, First Ones and Time Lords. I presume that all of these details will be fully delineated in Ascension?

Yes...and thanks for stepping in Axolotl mate. ;)

thompsja said:
I haven't read most of these threads... there seems to be a lot of background and assumed knowledge in the PDF, and it so the material isn't always as clear as I'd like it.

I think the material in the pdf is pretty inclusive. Of course I am happy to answer questions for people here on these forums (or via email) so I may, on occasion, indirectly expand that material.

thompsja said:
For example: the Kosmos seems to assume stars and planets, given the size catagories - Mega and Giga get to planetary sizes, and the Neutronium material, mined from neutron stars.

Well of course you don't have to use my kosmos, just like you don't have to use the great wheel D&D cosmos. But I am glad I was able to pique your curiousity. :)

thompsja said:
This may not make into a book, but is it possible for more background it to be put on the website?

I did actually add the Neutronium material to the website:

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff15.htm

As for expanded material on the kosmos, that will definately happen in a future book (probably Chronicle, although I may have some expanded dimensional information when I detail the other dimensional guardians* in future bestiaries).

Was there any facet of the kosmos that you were particularly interested in?

*Dimensional Guardians

Angels (see Bestiary Volume 1)
Elementars (I honestly haven't decided which book will contain these beings as yet)
Inevitables (Bestiary Volume 3)
Intelligibles (Bestiary Volume 2)
Pseudonaturals (Bestiary Volume 3; also the Akishra and Cogent in Volume 1 and Algol the Demon Star in Gods & Monsters are Pseudonaturals)
Sinistrals (corrupted angels; see the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Bestiary Volume 2)
Umbrals (Bestiary Volume 2)

thompsja said:
I'm awaiting purchasing Ascension.

I appreciate the interest, it shouldn't be too much longer to wait.
 

thompsja

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
it just means half the effect is divine damage and the other half is of the appropriate energy type.
OK, so there is no resistance or immunity to the 'divine' portion of the damage - that's the game effect of divine energy, right?
Was there any facet of the kosmos that you were particularly interested in?
When does a deity become an Old One? Is there a way for new entities to be considered "First Ones'' ? You don't need to answer here, I'll buy the book. I've got a cosmology cooking where some mortals, over centuries and millenia have managed to obtain some divine power. I want to contrast these demigods vs true deities, who completely overmatch them. I'd like some guidance about an approach to that.

By the way, I appreciate you and everyone else for replying. On the release of Ascension, I would like you to take all the time necessary to get it right.
 

WarDragon

First Post
Elder One, Old One and First One are simply U_K's terms for three tiers of what regular D&D lumps together as "overgods;" the creatures that are to gods, as gods are to mortals. Your mortals who've ascended would probably be in the Disciple to Hero Deity range.
 

dante58701

Banned
Banned
Im definitely gonna have to make the following ruling for all of my future campaigns.

Only humanoids and animals are restrained by physics in regards to Hit Dice.

Particularly since you use magic as a basis for your argument. This would mean all "magical" creatures, by that very definition, should break the rules of Hit Dice. Otherwise, we have no Gorgons, no Illithids, no Glooms or they drop so far in Hit Dice as to be a joke (adding class levels doesnt solve everything since most monsters are fine without them). This just doesnt make sense.

Unless you invent a new subtype called...magical...nearly half of all the monsters in all the books are in serious need of revisions and will be dramatically hurt by this very generalized ruling of yours.
 

Hey thompsja! :)

Yes you were right about divine fire.

Thanks for stepping in WarDragon! :)

Hey dante dude! :)

dante58701 said:
Im definitely gonna have to make the following ruling for all of my future campaigns.

Only humanoids and animals are restrained by physics in regards to Hit Dice.

Particularly since you use magic as a basis for your argument. This would mean all "magical" creatures, by that very definition, should break the rules of Hit Dice. Otherwise, we have no Gorgons, no Illithids, no Glooms or they drop so far in Hit Dice as to be a joke (adding class levels doesnt solve everything since most monsters are fine without them). This just doesnt make sense.

Unless you invent a new subtype called...magical...nearly half of all the monsters in all the books are in serious need of revisions and will be dramatically hurt by this very generalized ruling of yours.

There is no feasible reason why Medusa, Glooms or Illithids should have as many HD as they do. That said I'd make Glooms outsiders.

However there is simply no reason why Medusa or Illithids should have more than three natural hit dice. Illithids are probably trained as Psions at an early age so those that venture up near the surface to capture slaves will likely have a number of Psion levels.

I'd suggest maybe:

3 Base HD plus

- 1d6 Psion levels = Average Illithid
- 1d6+6 Psion levels = Illithid leader
- 1d6+12 Psion levels = Illithid Ruler

I don't see what the real problem is here. Drow never had that many racial hit dice and it never made them any less interesting or powerful villains.
 

dante58701

Banned
Banned
But then there are the extremely high racial modifiers, which make far more sense for higher Hit Dice "magical creatures". Just as constructs, fey, outsiders, and undead are unnatural, so too are most monstrous humanoids and most aberrations. Turning monstrous humanoids into outsiders just because they don't fit the parameters you set forth isn't very good logic. Monstrous humanoids are just that monstrous humanoids. While certainly some would fit the paradigm, not all of them will. You could just modify the paradigm, leaving room for adaptability. Not to mention, turning a monstrous humanoid into an outsider is like throwing gasoline on the fire. They become more powerful and cease to fit the niche that they once fit. the niche of monstrous humanoid. Unless, of course, you were finally willing to concede that there are outsiders that are not gods and that some outsiders (legendary animals being one example you noted as not necessarily being divine) are racial in design, rather than postmortemmetamorphic. e.i. petitioners, which I can't really sink my teeth into. Some outsiders were intended not to be divine in standing, but rather a race of extradimensional alien entities of sorts, who could, by circumstance or design, become divine if they played their cards right. You could of course also concede that extraplanar entities, be they aberration or otherwise, are exempt from such mundane limitations and contrivances of the master plan which has been set forth. This would be accurate since medusa (gorgons) were originally in OSD&D considered to be natives of the elemental plane of earth. This would also apply to glooms (shadow), and other extraplanar beings (illithids, since they come from an alternate or material plane). Drow are a poor example since they have nowhere near the power of such beings and would not be robbed of their abilities, nor are they extraplanar in design. Not to mention, they just so happen to fit the paradigm, rendering drow a moot point at best, and since drow could conceivably acquire more power due to the paradigm, a useless point at worst. While I dont think medusa in particular would be too hurt, I do think Illithids, Gloom, and other alien entities, would be devastated by the stripping of power and the weakening of ability. Other races would simply hit them while they're young and wipe them out from memory, thus destroying the fearsome impact Illithids and other alien entities have on drow and the like.

So in short, it isn't really about them being unable to be interesting or powerful. A kobold on a stick could be interesting and powerful. It's about robbing various species of what they rightfully are due and what they have had throughout the history of the game. While there have been modifications from time to time, in order to keep the flavor, TSR and WOTC have both tried to avoid robbing the races of all their inherent racial abilities. So there must be some way to fix this fatal flaw, without completely decimating entire populations of monsters.
 
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Hi dante mate! :)

dante58701 said:
But then there are the extremely high racial modifiers, which make far more sense for higher Hit Dice "magical creatures".

What are these extremely high racial modifiers you speak of?

dante58701 said:
Just as constructs, fey, outsiders, and undead are unnatural, so too are most monstrous humanoids and most aberrations.

I disagree. Humanoids and Aberattaions are not immortal they almost universally need to eat, breathe and sleep.

Thats why they should have 'naturalistic' hit dice.

dante58701 said:
Turning monstrous humanoids into outsiders just because they don't fit the parameters you set forth isn't very good logic. Monstrous humanoids are just that monstrous humanoids.

I certainly think it would work better for Glooms. I don't like inexplicable Hit Dice for the sake of Hit Dice, which is what you get with regards the Brachyurus, Gloom, Neh-Thallgu, Prismasaurus, Sirrush, Thorciasid and Vermiurge.

Now I am not going to suggest changing them. But what I do suggest is that you don't make the same design 'faux pas' when creating your own monsters.

dante58701 said:
While certainly some would fit the paradigm, not all of them will. You could just modify the paradigm, leaving room for adaptability.

The system is perfectly adaptable, but at the same time it should make sense.

40 HD for the Sirrush doesn't make a heck of a load of sense to me.

dante58701 said:
Not to mention, turning a monstrous humanoid into an outsider is like throwing gasoline on the fire. They become more powerful and cease to fit the niche that they once fit. the niche of monstrous humanoid.

They don't become that much more powerful.

Monstrous Humanoid and Magical Beast are the 4th and 3rd best Hit Dice types behind Dragon and Outsider.

dante58701 said:
Unless, of course, you were finally willing to concede that there are outsiders that are not gods and that some outsiders (legendary animals being one example you noted as not necessarily being divine) are racial in design, rather than postmortemmetamorphic. e.i. petitioners, which I can't really sink my teeth into.

As far as I am concerned all outsiders are spirit beings and technically immortal. That doesn't count people like Tieflings who are mortal and were simply born on the outer planes.

dante58701 said:
Some outsiders were intended not to be divine in standing, but rather a race of extradimensional alien entities of sorts, who could, by circumstance or design, become divine if they played their cards right. You could of course also concede that extraplanar entities, be they aberration or otherwise, are exempt from such mundane limitations and contrivances of the master plan which has been set forth.

I concede nothing of the kind.

dante58701 said:
This would be accurate since medusa (gorgons) were originally in OSD&D considered to be natives of the elemental plane of earth.

You see now why you don't try and be cute by supplanting the Medusa race with the name Gorgon, you only end up confusing things.

dante58701 said:
This would also apply to glooms (shadow), and other extraplanar beings (illithids, since they come from an alternate or material plane). Drow are a poor example since they have nowhere near the power of such beings and would not be robbed of their abilities, nor are they extraplanar in design. Not to mention, they just so happen to fit the paradigm, rendering drow a moot point at best, and since drow could conceivably acquire more power due to the paradigm, a useless point at worst. While I dont think medusa in particular would be too hurt, I do think Illithids, Gloom, and other alien entities, would be devastated by the stripping of power and the weakening of ability.

I already said that illithids would have Psion levels.

Gloom make more sense (at that HD) as outsiders?

What are these other alien entities you speak of?

dante58701 said:
Other races would simply hit them while they're young and wipe them out from memory,

Is that how nature works - I don't think so.

dante58701 said:
thus destroying the fearsome impact Illithids and other alien entities have on drow and the like.

Nonsense.

dante58701 said:
So in short, it isn't really about them being unable to be interesting or powerful.

Knowing what I know about you its 100% about them being powerful! :p

dante58701 said:
A kobold on a stick could be interesting and powerful. It's about robbing various species of what they rightfully are due and what they have had throughout the history of the game. While there have been modifications from time to time, in order to keep the flavor, TSR and WOTC have both tried to avoid robbing the races of all their inherent racial abilities.

Is it the same integrity thats seen the Balor go from 8 Hit Dice to 13 and now to 20!? :D

dante58701 said:
So there must be some way to fix this fatal flaw, without completely decimating entire populations of monsters.

The quick answer of course is that you don't need to fix it. Just don't make the same mistakes in the future.
 

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