Urban Arcana

[buzz]

Okay, Felon

Let's assume for the moment that nothing you've posted could be construed as offensive in any way, and that everyone, including myself, has been totally overreacting. Let's talk plainly, disregard implications, and answer your questions.

First: Do I think that WotC is actively choosing to exclude white males from the center focus of their covers for d20M products?

No. However, it would seem that they might be actively *including* a more diverse mix of characters. The default setting of the d20M game (the contemporary Western city) is a fairly diverse mileu, and also tends to be where you find bleeding-edge fashion. That the art should reflect this seems like a no-brainer to me. As I've said before, I think that the d20M art so far has looked pretty much your average American action movie (with more fantasty bits, maybe). I don't think *any* race or gender is being specifically excluded in any way.

Second: Do I think that this might have some deleterious effect on sales to a gaming community that is largely white and male?

Again, no. Considering that gamers seem to have no problem identifying with sword-carrying warriors, elven archers, mysterious wizards, and other entities with which they have no experience whatsoever, I don't see how the color of a character's skin or their gender is going to be any great hurdle, *especially* consdiering that race and gender issues are not germane to most RPGs. I.e., the effect of an iconic charcter being African-American or female has no in-game effect. The game does not (barring a GM who chooses to include it) deal with issues that make these aspects of characters matter.

If anything, given the success of computers games like Tomb Raider, I'd think featuring females in particular would be a *draw* for most gamers. And let's not ignore (as we have been) that there *are* indeed gamers who are not white and not male. Rather than excluding white males, I think WotC is simply *including* everyone.

Anyway, if keeping the artwork in line with the gender and ethnicity of their fanbase did make any difference, the best-selling games would feature pudgy white men doing white-collar jobs or attending college. Call me crazy, but I wouldn't think a game like this would have much of any appeal.

You're welcome not to like any of this. It makes me kind of sad that any of this should affect your opinion of a game, but I guess to each their own.

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

Your own statements indicate a certain predilection for making hasty, disdainful assessments about folks who think and react differently from you (and are therefore "simpletons"), and that brings your own level of open-minded enlightenment into question.

My open-mindedness? I'm not the one casting aside material from my own hobby because there wasn't a guy like me on the cover. How about that, I'm looking more enlightened already.

People have their own values and experiences that shape their perceptions; they may indeed take stock of things that you don't.
And that just might not make them foul idiots. Have you ever experienced reverse-discrimination? Ever lost a job or experienced social hostility due to your race or gender? It happens, and when it does it leaves an indelible mark upon one's perspective.

Oh puh-leeze. I'm sure their experiences have left them unable to use books that don't have their own ethnic group on the cover.
Which is it? Did they feel excluded , or did they suffer some tragic discrimination that's left them embittered to the point where they've developed such a... bias? The reason seems to change every few posts.

There is a vast difference between people who think differently from me, and people whose actions are incomprehensible. My two best friends couldn't be more different from me. I think they'd agree with me though, that anyone who passes up a book from their own hobby because of the cover's subject matter is a little off balance.

As you sit weighing and measuring others at the gaming table to see if they're fit to be in your company, do you ever wonder if there a few imperfections in your own character that would make you reconsider your own fitness to so readily dole out contempt towards others for their inadequacies?

Contempt has nothing to do with it. The person in question was intolerable and the rest of the group agreed. I guess they were tired of having him befouling their air and then laughing about it, talking one inch from their faces, breaking people's stuff and not apologizing...
Me, I'm polite, I help out the younger people in the group, I don't act like a starving animal when the pizza gets there, I respect the others' personal boundries and property, I'm well-mannered. In short, I haven't had any complaints. But hey, all you know about me is that I disagreed with you, I'm sure that's enough of a reason to call my character into question.

You don't seem to think they should have reacted the way they did either, but rather than just say, "Yeah, that sort of thing is a trifle lame.", you call into question other people's character?
Oh well.

 

[Razuur]

Ummm....

I guess I was just wondering if people out there thought this was a *SUPER* product, or a not so super product...

or don't care.

Did their marketing work?

Razuur

 

[buzz]

I guess I was just wondering if people out there thought this was a *SUPER* product, or a not so super product...

I vote for super. The sidebar on casting spells via email by iteself would have made me buy the book. There are a lot of cool (and fun!) concepts in the setting. I'll probably be starting my group on a UA campaign in a few months.

 

[King of Old School]

It is not particularly fair to ascribe sentiments to me that are opposed to what I've actually stated expressly. Several times.

Well, the problem is that you keep contradicting yourself. Several times.

As for the rest of what you've said, I consider most of it to be valid points that I'd been mulling over myself. Yes, I do think a male elf would be considered more of a white guy than a female drow. No, I'm sure what Adam Swift's ethnicity is, or even if the character on the D20 Menace book is him (off-hand I'd go with Bran's guess that he's a native American). Yes, I think it'll take more than 3 books to provide more than a general impression of what WotC's "official" central cover iconic policy is (if anything).

Why do you think the centre character on the Menace Manual cover (I'm all but certain it's Adam Swift, but let's not assume so for the moment) is anything other than white? I'm honestly curious.

As for the elf vs drow question, that's pretty openminded of you. Personally, I'm equally (un)able to identify with either character type but that's me.

For the umpteenth time, I don't object to diversity. It is discrimination that I find problematic. What I do suspect is that they may be altogether excluding white male iconics from that central cover spot, and that does seem to smack of both bad business and a form of reverse-discrimination (albeit one of the more trivial instances that I'm likely to encounter within my lifetime). It's too soon to be much more than a suspicion, but I'm content to wait and watch as D20M marches on.

Here's the kind of contradiction I was talking about. Obviously you do have a problem with this. That you've even formed a suspicion, based on such sparse and questionable evidence, suggests either that you're ultrasensitive about the issue (which is what everyone is saying) or that you're massively paranoid in general. Even suspecting a trend based on one instance is not a reasonable position in any case.

KoOS

 

[Felon]

Oh puh-leeze. I'm sure their experiences have left them unable to use books that don't have their own ethnic group on the cover.
Which is it? Did they feel excluded , or did they suffer some tragic discrimination that's left them embittered to the point where they've developed such a... bias? The reason seems to change every few posts.

For the most part, I have been asking questions and posing possibilities more than I've been making declaratives. I know that issues relating to gender and racial issues are pretty complex and they don't boil down to one single reason. Although I don't have all the answers, I do have a lot of experience trying to appreciate them. If you do, then I don't understand why you're rolling eyes or suggesting that the possibility of a gamer "feeling excluded" and the possibility that gamer might have experienced "tragic discrimination" are two unrelated, inconsistent factors.

There is a vast difference between people who think differently from me, and people whose actions are incomprehensible. My two best friends couldn't be more different from me. I think they'd agree with me though, that anyone who passes up a book from their own hobby because of the cover's subject matter is a little off balance.

Then possibly one thing you and your friends have in common is a lack of appreciation for how something as minor as the cover's choice of iconics can influence a person's perceptions. Little things can influence decisions. Without even knowing they do, no less. Nothing outrageous or incomprehensible about that.

Contempt has nothing to do with it. The person in question was intolerable and the rest of the group agreed. I guess they were tired of having him befouling their air and then laughing about it, talking one inch from their faces, breaking people's stuff and not apologizing...

Well, the thing is, in your previous post you were speaking in terms of pluralities, not just one indiividual with odious personal habits (maybe too many carbohydrates in his diet?).

Me, I'm polite, I help out the younger people in the group, I don't act like a starving animal when the pizza gets there, I respect the others' personal boundries and property, I'm well-mannered. In short, I haven't had any complaints. But hey, all you know about me is that I disagreed with you, I'm sure that's enough of a reason to call my character into question.

Yeah, it sucks to demonized by people who know precious little about who you are, doesn't it? Oh well, at least you aren't having to fend off multiple character assassination attempts at once.

You don't seem to think they should have reacted the way they did either, but rather than just say, "Yeah, that sort of thing is a trifle lame.", you call into question other people's character?

Actually, I did not start with the character assault. Here're my initial comments:

Originally posted by Felon As for appealing to their huge core D&D audience, the look of the book is certainly not a step in the right direction. The cover in particular, which apparently tries to appeal to the average gamer by presenting three drow twerps dressed-up like hip-hop street trash (that one on the right especially). I, for one, don't want to play one the little foul-mouthed punk-ass teenagers that makes my subway ride to work every morning more annoying. I ask for heroes and they give me hoodlums. Then again, from taking a close look at the central character depicted on each of the covers for D20M, UA, and the forthcoming D20 Menace, perhaps I can infer that WotC's marketing department has concluded that my group of age 30+ white males is no longer representative of that core audience.

I wasn't the one who started disparaging the character of other people in this thread. My manner was pretty much that of facetiousness, basically saying that it was indeed a trifle lame. But ultimately, I do give as good as I get.

Why do you think the centre character on the Menace Manual cover (I'm all but certain it's Adam Swift, but let's not assume so for the moment) is anything other than white? I'm honestly curious.

Just eyeballin' him, though it isn't conclusive. Never said it was--in fact, I've consistently said it wasn't. Again, look at my above quote where I said "perhaps". It was a pretty innocuous statement, all-in-and-all. There was no soapboxing being done.

Here's the kind of contradiction I was talking about. Obviously you do have a problem with this. That you've even formed a suspicion, based on such sparse and questionable evidence, suggests either that you're ultrasensitive about the issue (which is what everyone is saying) or that you're massively paranoid in general.

You call it sensitive, I call it observant. Then again, I'm also content to split the difference at "mildly paranoid". Yes, I'm suspicious about things that have the earmarks of reverse-discrimination.

At any rate, I don't get where you're drawing a self-contradiction from. You choosing not to believe something I say doesn't constitue a self-contradiction on my part.

Even suspecting a trend based on one instance is not a reasonable position in any case.

Not much I can say here other than you're entitled to that particular opinion, as is the other guys. As to what I'm entitled to, I'll suspect until I see reason not to suspect.

 

[woodelf]

[snip...]but the point being discussed had to do with the whole notion of a "core audience familiarity" marketing strategy that Ranger brought up. If the core audience is white males, why avoid depicting them?

Because white males get to be white males 24/7, and would rather be something else in their games? I know *i* don't play myself, usually, in an RPG, and usually specifically pick a character that is very differnt from myself in at least one fundamental way (belief system, culture/race, gender/age, etc.). From my experiences, the same is true of most RPers.

 

[buzz]

Because white males get to be white males 24/7, and would rather be something else in their games? I know *i* don't play myself, usually, in an RPG, and usually specifically pick a character that is very differnt from myself in at least one fundamental way (belief system, culture/race, gender/age, etc.). From my experiences, the same is true of most RPers.

It should also be noted that Felon's whole notion that white males are not being depicted in d20M products is bunk. It may not be 100%, but hey, neither is earth.

Buzz, a person of some color who loves the feminine pronoun.

 

[Psion]

Ironically, though lots of people are skepitical here ("the D&D fan site"), over at RPGnet ("the D&D basher site"), some posters seem to be drinking it up.

I'm dubious myself, but I'll give it a once over.

 

[Benedict]

For what it's worth I think the girls on the cover of UA are sexy. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of guys were to agree with me on that.

Hey! Do ya think that WotC did that on purpose? Holy cow! they made me pick up their book to get a better look at the cover, which in turn got me to open it, which in turn got me to (gasp) buy it!
/sarcasm

I'm 36, and I gotta say that although I do not dress like the the teens and twenty-somethings here in Las Vegas, I can appreciate their style. Clothes and hair do not make one scum, Actions do.

And as a friend of mine (one who virually oozes with style) says, "The mind is like a parachute... it only works when it's open."

benedict