Use Magic Device

I would use the working assumption that for spell trigger items the command word that triggers it is the same command word that is used to trigger the prepared spell (and worry about the two or so somatic-only spells as special cases).

Thus clerics know that 'spondoolicus' is the V component of their CLW spell, and it is also the command word for a spell trigger item that contains CLW. In each case that magical word is the one which unleashes the prepared (or potential) spell.

That's why knowing the spell in a wand "gives you the command word" and I don't have to worry about why wizards don't create all different command words for their stuff.

Cheers
 

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Plane Sailing said:
I would use the working assumption that for spell trigger items the command word that triggers it is the same command word that is used to trigger the prepared spell (and worry about the two or so somatic-only spells as special cases).

Thus clerics know that 'spondoolicus' is the V component of their CLW spell, and it is also the command word for a spell trigger item that contains CLW. In each case that magical word is the one which unleashes the prepared (or potential) spell.

That's why knowing the spell in a wand "gives you the command word" and I don't have to worry about why wizards don't create all different command words for their stuff.

Right - that's what I was getting at with my 'try to make the other guy look stupid by asking loaded questions' game.

If your casting of CLW can be identified by anyone from any culture, magical tradition, time, plane, or dimension via a spellcraft check, it means that all CLWs in any culture, magical tradition, time, plane, or dimension have enough in common that they can be so identified.

I don't see any reason why the spell should be that consistent, and yet the word that activates a wand of that spell should not be.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Right - that's what I was getting at with my 'try to make the other guy look stupid by asking loaded questions' game.

If your casting of CLW can be identified by anyone from any culture, magical tradition, time, plane, or dimension via a spellcraft check, it means that all CLWs in any culture, magical tradition, time, plane, or dimension have enough in common that they can be so identified.

I don't see any reason why the spell should be that consistent, and yet the word that activates a wand of that spell should not be.

-Hyp.

Mmmm, the conclusion I would draw is that the spellcraft check allows you to deduce what the results of a given set of wavings and mumblings would be. That's not necessarily the same as recognizing familiar gestures for a particular spell. I don't think universality of casting method is implied at all. It could just as easily be "hm, I've never seen this technique before, but if he manipulates the whatevers in this way, it should result in a ball of fire..."

I think the parenthetical note about 3rd level paladins is important to understanding the context of the line in question.

In any case, to return to the original question, my ruling would be you can't activate a wand blindly, not because of the "single word" bit, but because of this line in the wands section of the SRD: "The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it."

Nothing in the activate blindly section of the UMD description implies to me that you can ignore that.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Right - that's what I was getting at with my 'try to make the other guy look stupid by asking loaded questions' game.

Then please actually say what you mean next time. Trying to lead me down a path by asking slanted questions is just annoying, not enlightening.

If your casting of CLW can be identified by anyone from any culture, magical tradition, time, plane, or dimension via a spellcraft check, it means that all CLWs in any culture, magical tradition, time, plane, or dimension have enough in common that they can be so identified.

I don't think it means that at all. The fact that a skill roll is required to identify any spell indicates the opposite. If they were all the same, there would be no skill check involved for identifiying spells that you know how to cast yourself.

A counter-example: If what you are saying was true, then it wouldn't be possible to identify the spellcasting of a druid with the Natural Spell feat while wild-shaped, since the druid is explicitly using animal sounds and movements rather than normal spellcasting. As it is, there isn't even a penalty to the spellcraft check to identify the spell.

I don't see any reason why the spell should be that consistent, and yet the word that activates a wand of that spell should not be.

-Hyp.

Since spells aren't that consistent, there's no reason for a wand to be either.
 
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IanB said:
...In any case, to return to the original question, my ruling would be you can't activate a wand blindly, not because of the "single word" bit, but because of this line in the wands section of the SRD: "The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it."

Nothing in the activate blindly section of the UMD description implies to me that you can ignore that.
I disagree. I believe that you can 'activate blindly' a wand using a DC25 UMD skill check (or DC23 if you have successfully 'activated blindly' before).

Althought I do agree that the 'Use a Wand' application of UMD does require knowledge of the spell stored in the wand. "This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list." But you still need to know what spell it is before you can make use of the UMD skill in this way. So IMO a Rogue (for example) with no ranks in Spellcraft would not KNOW what the spell in the wand is, regardless if he had blindly activated it, he simply doesn't have that knowledge.
 

Legildur said:
I disagree. I believe that you can 'activate blindly' a wand using a DC25 UMD skill check (or DC23 if you have successfully 'activated blindly' before).

Althought I do agree that the 'Use a Wand' application of UMD does require knowledge of the spell stored in the wand. "This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list." But you still need to know what spell it is before you can make use of the UMD skill in this way. So IMO a Rogue (for example) with no ranks in Spellcraft would not KNOW what the spell in the wand is, regardless if he had blindly activated it, he simply doesn't have that knowledge.

I don't see any evidence in the "activate blindly" text that indicates you can bypass the restriction of knowing what it is a wand of.
 

Let’s check some other “sources” to see what they say.


From Rules of the Game:

Spell Trigger: This is the activation method for wands and staffs. Activating a spell trigger item requires no gestures or spell finishing, but you must speak a single word, and you must hold the item in your hand (or what passes for your hand).

To use a spell trigger item, you must have the spell that is stored in the item on your class spell list. You can use the item even if you're not high enough level to cast the stored spell (or even high enough level to cast any spells at all). It doesn't make any difference if the stored spell is arcane or divine, and your ability scores don’t matter.

See the Player's Handbook (or other appropriate rulebook) for your class spell list. If you have a prohibited school of spells (if you're a specialist wizard, for example), the spells from that school aren't part of your class spell list. If you have access to clerical spell domains, the spells in the domains you've chosen are on your class spell list (spells from domains you could have chosen, but did not, are not on your class spell list). If you're multiclassed, you can use a spell trigger item that stores a spell that is on at least one of your class spell lists.

If a spell trigger item stores more than one spell (for example, a staff), you may find that you can use only some of the item's functions.

Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If the spell stored in a spell trigger item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time.

Command Word: This is the default activation method for rings, rods, and wondrous items when the item description doesn't mention another activation method. To use a command word item, you speak the command word and the item activates. You need no other special knowledge, but you must hold or wear the item as appropriate for that item (see Part One).

Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If a command word item produces a spell effect and that spell has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is the item's activation time.

A command word usually is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word.

As noted in the Dungeon Master's Guide, the Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 produces the word itself. If you fail that check, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into what the word might be. For example, a successful check to gain insight might indicate the sort of word the command might be, such as an ancient word for "fire" or a rhyming couplet related to the item's function.

You could possibly pick up a command word when you witness the item being used. I recommend a DC 15 Listen check. Subtract 5 from the DC if the area is fairly quiet and add 5 to the DC if the area is very noisy (such as a typical battle). Also apply the DC modifiers from the Listen skill description. If you have at least 5 ranks in the Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) skills, you get a +2 bonus on the check.

Remember that a command word item is pretty easy to use. These tricks won't help you figure out how to use a spell completion or spell trigger item.

The spells identify and analyze dweomer both reveal command words, as noted in the spell descriptions.

Some command-activated items use a command thought or other nonverbal command instead of command word (if so, the item description will say so). Such items work just like command word items in play, except that you can't make a Listen check to learn the command word. You might, however, pick up the command using a detect thoughts spell at the right moment or by making a Spot check, as appropriate for the item in question.

The Use Magic Device Skill
The Use Magic Device skill allows you to activate magic items even when you could not normally do so. For example, you can use it to activate a spell trigger item even when you don't have the spell it stores on your class spell list. You also can use the skill to activate a command item when you don't know the command or decipher the writing on a scroll and then activate the scroll (or other spell completion item) even when you otherwise could not.

Some people think that you need the Use Magic Device skill to activate any item, but that's not so. The Use Magic Device skill merely provides a sort of last resort when you want to use an item that you otherwise cannot activate.

The DC for a Use Magic Device check depends on the kind of item you're trying to use, as noted in the skill description. Here are a few additional notes for using the skill:

Blind Activation: You can use the "activate blindly" option with any kind of item. You can even use it to activate a command item when you don't know the command (or even what the device does). If you succeed, you activate the item somehow. Successful activation does not necessarily reveal the command to you, but you do get a +2 bonus on further attempts to activate the item blindly.

As an unofficial rule, you might allow a character who has activated an item blindly an immediate Knowledge check (see the section on command activation) with a base DC of 25. Give the character a cumulative circumstance bonus of +2 for each for time the character has previously activated the item blindly. The character gets only one check for each blind activation. If the character doesn't have the appropriate Knowledge skill, the character makes an Intelligence check (with the previously noted circumstance bonus) instead.

The skill description doesn't say so, but there's no reason why you could not use blind activation when you don't know a spell trigger item's function. To use this unofficial rule, you must aim the item somewhere. If you aim at the wrong place, you might simply waste a charge from the item, or you might have a disaster on your hands (depending on what the item's effect is and exactly where you aimed). If the spell trigger item produces a visible effect, you probably can surmise what the spell is. Otherwise make a DC 25 Spellcraft check to determine what the spell is. If the effect is visible and your DM decides you might not know what it is, the check DC is only 20.

From the FAQ:

I’m trying to find out if my rogue, wearing leather armor, can make a Use Magic Device check to trigger a wand containing an arcane spell. What is the DC for doing so? It appears from the rules that the armor will cause a 10% chance of arcane spell failure, if the spell being cast has a somatic (S) component (Player’s Handbook, page 122). Is it true that casting a spell from a spell-trigger item, such as a wand, removes the requirement for the somatic component, and thereby eliminates this 10% chance of failure?

The Use Magic Device skill is for using magic items that you normally could not otherwise activate. Activating a wand has a DC of 20, as shown on the table in the Use Magic Device skill description. However, this assumes that you already know what spell the wand stores. If you don’t, you have to activate the wand blindly (DC 25). If you successfully activate a wand blindly, you know what spell it contains, and your subsequent attempts to activate that particular wand are at DC 20. There’s no arcane spell failure chance for activating a spell trigger item, for a command word item, or for a use-activated item. There is an arcane spell failure chance for activating a scroll (a spell completion item), provided the spell stored on the scroll has a somatic component.


The common theme seems to be that:

You can UMD to activate a wand with a DC of 20 assuming you know what spell the wand stores otherwise you have to Activate Blindly (DC 25).

Also there is a clear distinction between a command word and spell trigger activation item. If they were the “same” then the restrictions on command words would have been put into the descriptions of how to use spell trigger devices. When all it says is that you must speak a single word. It does not state you must speak the command word. These inherently become different mechanics because of this. Otherwise it makes a wand both a spell trigger and a command word activation item.
 

IanB said:
I don't see any evidence in the "activate blindly" text that indicates you can bypass the restriction of knowing what it is a wand of.
I think that irdeggman has done the necessary leg work for me :)
 

Yep, I didn't check the FAQ. That's the only bit that I find convincing, but then, it is the only bit that needs to be. :)
 

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