Usefulness of a Dragon Disciple

[nharwell]

Where did the Sage say it didn't give reach? I didn't see it in the quoted thread.

Seems like a pretty strange ruling considering that on PHB pg 131 it makes it clear that this is part of being a Large (tall) creature. See Table 8-7, Creature Size and Scale.

Reach is not an automatic function of size. Check the creature advancement rules in the MM -- reach is not listed as a ability granted by size change. Moreover, there are many Large creatures in the MM who have only 5 ft reach. Giving 10 ft reach would make the enlargement feature much more useful, but I don't see how one could justify it -- especially if the Dragon Disciple doesn't get the benefits listed in the MM for size change (bonuses to Str & Con, natural armor, penalty to Dex, etc.).

 

[Morose]

Not that I'm saying a DD should or shouldn't get reach, but for the record there are very few (I actually can't find any) creatures that are Large(tall) that DO NOT have reach. All Large Humanoid creatures fall into the Large(tall) category as far as I can see. This is different from Large(long) creatures like Worms, most Animals, etc. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Chris Nagle]

Depends on what you mean by "is it worth it". The class, as written, is definitely NOT a good choice for a straight sorceror.

That all depends when you use the PrC. A Sorceror in our champagin has gone 14th Sorceror/5th Archmage (Forgotten Realms PrC) then 1st level Dragon Disciple.

Why u ask? Because the spell abilities say 1 spell of any level so he selected an extra 9th level spell slot.

Now we are heading into Epic Level he can add to the Dragon Disciple and get EXTRA 9th Level slots.

 

[Lord_Anthrax]

Like some folk pointed out, Dragon Disciple is pretty much worthless to a straight spellcaster. But to a MC char it can be devastating. Consider this: A Human Fighter 5/Sorceror 1, Str 18 with Power Attack, Power Lunge, Weapon Focus/Spec Greatsword, and the Sorc spells Shield and True Strike. By the time Dragon Disciple's finished, if you dump all your bonus points into Str you're looking at a 30 Str score. That's without any nifty items. Once again, without any nifty items, if you do a full-on True Strike/Power Attack/Power Lunge move with a Huge Greatsword you're looking at a +18 to hit for a 2d8(base)+2(WS)+30(Power Lunge and 2-H Str bonus)+12(Power Attack)blow. That's 53 HP damage on average.
As for the AoO provoked, well..a Large humanoid with a Huge weapon should have a 10' Reach. If your target doesn't have reach, so much for the AoO! And if that blow crits, can we say "Ouch!" ? Thought you could. And even if you're not getting any bonus spells from Cha, you can now cast 11 1st-Level Spells/day. That's a lotta True Strikes!
Now, you get yourself some Str enhancement and a Ring of Wizardry I along with a really good sword, and it's mauling time!
All this and you can fly, you're immune to an energy type, and immune to sleep and paralysis too! Plus you just look darn scary!

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Are you talking about going all the way to level 10?

You realize that will reduce his BAB by 5 and he will miss out on either a lot of feats or other cool PrC abilities.

Generally there are better desicions, like tempus or weapon master, after level 5 or 6 of DD.

--IMHO Spikey

 

[Archer]

I was the one who talked about the rage mage/disciple combo. The rage mage only gets 1 spell per level and tops out at 4th level spells so there is nothing to lose by going dragon. Rage mage counts every level as caster level. Therefore you make the most out of the disciple.

Only large long creatures do not have 10' reach. Being large is worth +4 ECL alone when figuring power levels. If you figure the disciple is worth 7 levels out of 10 then you come out one level ahead. You can cut your losses after 5 levels, then you come out 3+4=7-5 or 2 levels ahead instead of 1.

There are certainly many other class combos that put you more than 1 level ahead. Wizard/archmage is one.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I just wanted to point out that the DD gets +8 to str over 10 level snot +4. He gets +2 at 2nd, +2 at 4th or 5th I think, and then at 10th level if you read apposethis(sp) it says an additional +4 to str. 2+2+4=+8 str. So while the BAB is +7 over 10 level the AB is +10 over 10 levels. +7bab+4str-1size. The additional +4-6 points of damage on a hit are nothing to snezze at either. The claw and bite attacks are mediocre at best, unless maybeif you use the multi-attack feat from MoTW, a -2 on the additioanl attacks instead of -5 can give you a really good to hit rate.

 

[Oni]

I just want to go through this and make sure I have everthing straight.

From Tome and Blood, page 56 under dragon disciple.

"Ability Boost: As the dragon disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted in Table 3-8. These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement."

under Dragoin Apotheosis:

"...and he gainst an additional 4 points of Strenght and 2 points of Charisma."

So over all ten levels of the prestige class Ability Boost and Dragon Apotheosis grant a total of +8 str, +2 con, +2 int, +2 Chr.

"Enlargement: At 5th level, the dragon disciple's size increase one step, from Small to Medium-size or from Medium-size to Large."

This very specifically says there is a size increase, not that the dragon disciple gains some of the benefits of a size increase, no?

From the MM, page 12 under Size Increases:

"A size increase affects a creature's ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage ratings as indicated on the following tables."

taken from the following table.
Old Size..........New Size.....Str.....Dex.......Con.....Natural Armor.....Ac/Attack
Medium-size....Large..........+8......-2..........+4.........+2....................-1

From the MM, page 5 under Size and Type:

"A creature's size also determines how far it can reach to make a melee attack and how much space it occupies in a fight (see Face/Reach, and also Big and Little Creatures in Combat, page 131 in the Player's Handbook)."

excert from PHB page 131 table 8-7: Creature Size and Scale:

Creature Size.....Example Creature.....Natural Reach......Face
Large (tall)**......Hill giant....................10 ft....................5 ft.x 5ft.

**Tall creatures are upright.

From what I gather this is what comes from the size increase. +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, +2 natural armor, 10ft reach, -1AC/attack.

So total over the course of all 10 levels of the prestige class a dragon disciple would gain the following. +16 str, +6 con, -2 dex, +2 int, +2 chr, +6 natural armour (+4 from the PrC, +2 from size increase as this should stack as this bonus would go to creatures that already had natural armour if their size increased), 10ft reach, -1ac, -1 attack.



Now did I miss anything, did I leave anything out, or did I get anything wrong?

Can anyone show me OFFICIAL eratta that contradicts this?


[edit: tried to make the tables a little easier to read]

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I can't show anything official one way or the other. Though someone saw sage comments about getting all those size benefits, and then the sage deciding you don't get them after all. Me I don't give the attribute bonuses from size, but I give everything else. I feel the attribute bonuses spread across the levels simulate the growth in size enough, without adding any more being necesarry. Yeah I know it doesn't fit exactly since 1/2 dragon tmeplate gives certain stats=to those shown even without the size increase, but I feel it is a good enough justification to maintain some balance.

 

[Oni]

*KA-BUMP*