D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[TiQuinn]

But the trigger for the Reaction is extremely permissible in 5e. It simply says "perceivable circumstance". Could be the next enemy in the initiative order "moves a muscle". Could be the next combatant "begins to move their limbs".

It’s up to the DM to adjudicate whether that’s a valid trigger or not. It can simply be if a character moves, which sure, what’s wrong with that?

Also Actions don't require initiative. When you cast a spell as a ritual for example, you're taking the Magic action throughout the casting time. You're not in initiative.

Rituals are exceptions because they are typically not happening in combat. Readying an action means you use your reaction out of turn - meaning you have to be in turn order which comes by way of rolling initiative.

 

[Teemu]

If your opinion is that the Ready action allows you to cast a 1 action spell with Action Surge, due to how easy it is to declare a trigger that will happen almost no matter what (barring for example enemies who don't move when making magical attacks, like psionic abilities), the Action Surge ability should then read, "On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action, unless you also spend your Reaction."

Furthermore, can you use Action Surge to Ready the Magic action of the Horn of Blasting? If yes, why? Can you use Action Surge to Ready the wave of fear that the Mace of Terror lets you use as a Magic action, which by the way is not the Fear spell but instead a custom ability specific to that item. Can you use Action Surge to Ready the lightning bolt version of the Javelin of Lightning, which is a Magic action?

 

[Teemu]

It’s up to the DM to adjudicate whether that’s a valid trigger or not. It can simply be if a character moves, which sure, what’s wrong with that?



Rituals are exceptions because they are typically not happening in combat. Readying an action means you use your reaction out of turn - meaning you have to be in turn order which comes by way of rolling initiative.

Right, so you can't Ready outside initiative. Now I don't know your opinion on the Action Surge to Ready a 1 action spell issue, but if you could Ready with Action Surge to cast a 1 action spell, why is it that outside combat you can only cast 1 action spells with the Magic action, but suddenly in combat you could completely omit using the Magic action and only cast with the Ready action?

 

[mamba]

It gives you a way to use your Reaction that you wouldn’t otherwise have. Forgive my slight error in phrasing.

I consider it an important distinction, the Ready meta-action describes how to turn another action of your choice into your reaction.

That is all it does, it is not an action itself. You could get rid of it and handle that case under each individual action and nothing would change. This just puts the summary in one place instead of repeating it several times.

The spell slot (or in the case being discussed, the staff charge) gets used up because that’s part of the effect specified by the Ready Action.

no, by using the action of your choice, in this case the Magic action, and doing so on your turn already rather than waiting with that for your reaction to occur

No, what Ready does is allows you to specify another Action (or movement up to your speed) that it then allows you to use as a Reaction in response to a specific trigger. Very explicitly so, I can quote the text for you if you’d like.

I quoted the text already, our disagreement is not resolved by that text, it is caused by it / how unclear it is

 

[TiQuinn]

Right, so you can't Ready outside initiative. Now I don't know your opinion on the Action Surge to Ready a 1 action spell issue, but if you could Ready with Action Surge to cast a 1 action spell, why is it that outside combat you can only cast 1 action spells with the Magic action, but suddenly in combat you could completely omit using the Magic action and only cast with the Ready action?

My opinion regarding the OP’s scenario is that if you can take a Magic action, then you can use a Ready action for a spell. If you’ve already used a Magic action, Action Surge and the Ready action aren’t going to allow you to cast another spell.

But I also see the ambiguity in the wording, and think that if a DM wants to allow it, they can, and see how much of an issue it really is.

 

[mamba]

“Delay” is not a term that appears anywhere in the text of the Ready action, and thinking of it in those terms is what is leading you to misunderstand how this specific interaction works.

it’s just shorthand for ‘specify a trigger to use the action as a reaction to’, it changes nothing about how it works

Ready is not a special way to perform an action that delays it until a later time, it’s a unique Action with a unique entry in the Actions list and unique rules for resolution.

I grant you separate entry and rules, but those rules tell you to chose the other action you actually want to perform and a trigger to cause you to perform it.

You can remove the Ready action and repeat the relevant part under any of the other actions and nothing changes, Ready just summarizes it in one spot.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So it doesn’t require an action to use it working with merely a thought? Or do you think that it defaults to the Magic Action as per the Magic item introduction?

It defaults to magic action because casting a spell uses the magic action.

 

[Charlaquin]

That in your opinion it isn’t unbalanced, is not a justification to say it’s a good face value reading of the rule.

You might think it’s balanced but the Devs clearly didn’t want two spells to be cast with Action Surge whether by spellcasting or magic item. Which is why they specifically excluded that in the new version of Action Surge. They don’t want fighters to be better spell casters than single classed spell casters which seems right and sensible.

Right, but you’re not just casting two spells with action surge. You’re casting one spell with action surge and then trading your reaction and concentration for a chance at casting a second spell, that can easily be disrupted.

Spending a reaction is the benefit you get from being able to affect something in the future that hasn’t happened yet. That’s the payoff. That’s what the reaction gets you. The same as for a move, or an attack, or a hide. One reaction in exchange for the option to wait and see. I cannot see why you think this also justifies giving additional benefits on top of that to exclude the clear and intentional restrictions of Action Surge for Magic Item use.

Additional benefits? What additional benefits? Having to use your concentration and your reaction are drawbacks, and that’s what makes this move fair, compared to casting the spell immediately with only your action.

This feels like an attempt to use semantics to try and get around those. Which the OP himself acknowledges was a workaround. I guess when there is any ambiguity, no matter how small, some folks want to push the boundaries. Always been that way, always will be. I’m just glad I don’t have those kinds of players at my tables and in my experience they seem pretty rare.

This isn’t about pushing boundaries, this seems to me to be pretty clearly both possible under the rules as written, and perfectly reasonable in terms of game balance. And I’m analyzing this from a perspective of a DM asking, would I allow a player to do this, not from the perspective of a player wanting to do it. Indeed, as a player I can’t really imagine wanting to do this, for the reasons I’ve already gone over of why it seems suboptimal to me.

As said earlier I think people search the internet when stuff like this comes. Both for table rulings but also exploits they can use on an unsuspecting DM and I think many of us want it to be clear that this is a controversial use and no DM should feel obliged to permit it in their games.

Sure. There are different possible ways to interpret these rules, and trying to argue that your DM’s interpretation is wrong is disruptive behavior as a player. Frankly, one shouldn’t do it even if the DM does happen to be wrong, because it’s ultimately their decision. If you take issue with a ruling the DM makes, you should discuss it with them privately, away from the table, not during game time. And if you do so, you should make your case, hea out theirs, and then either accept their final decision, or if it matters that much to you, leave the game. Lengthy debates like this are for DMs talking shop, not for players to try to make their DMs rule a certain way because the book says so (maybe, depending on your interpretation).

 

[Charlaquin]

Also, here’s a question for those who think that the 2024 Ready action doesn’t necessitate the Magic action rules:

To be clear, my interpretation is that you do still use a Magic Action when you Ready a spell. You just use it later, as a Reaction, instead of on your turn (since on your turn you’re using the Ready Action).

can you not take the Magic action outside combat to cast your 1 action spells?

Of course you can.

You can’t Ready unless you’re in combat, right? Or can you?

I don’t see why you couldn’t, though there wouldn’t really be much benefit to doing so. The point of the Ready Action is to take an Action at a different time than the strict combat turn structure would otherwise allow. Outside of combat your timing is less restricted so there isn’t really a need for Readying Actions.

Can a character always just Ready their 1 action spells and never take the Magic action? Could they do that even when you’re not using initiative?

I guess? But again, I don’t know why they’d want to. Outside of combat it would be all drawback, no benefit to do so.