D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

[Lanefan]

It's only "cheating" by the expectations/restrictions you put on the game. For those who don't adopt your house rules, it's not cheating.

The cheating example I used was "creative" dice rolling. To be more specific, the player was rolling the die under the raised table where (the player thought) no-one could see, and then reporting a different, better, roll when asked. Another player noticed the original roll was different and started paying closer attention. Once a pattern became clear, I-as-DM got a note.

Personally I think it's "cheating" for the DM to force their own storyline by telling the players how they are supposed to roleplay.

While I wouldn't go so far as to call this cheating, I agree with the sentiment here.

 

[HammerMan]

The cheating example I used was "creative" dice rolling. To be more specific, the player was rolling the die under the raised table where (the player thought) no-one could see, and then reporting a different, better, roll when asked. Another player noticed the original roll was different and started paying closer attention. Once a pattern became clear, I-as-DM got a note.

While I wouldn't go so far as to call this cheating, I agree with the sentiment here.

Okay back in 3e we had a joke of "+1 Jimmy Bless" and "(redacted) Ranged finder"

I redacted his last name... he is still a friend, but he doesn't play anymore (and we kicked him from group when he still was) because he would take random +1s all the time, and he had this habit with extra attacks (that remember were each less bonus then the one before) "Does a 17 hit" no, "Does a 20 hit" no, "Does a 23 hit?" yes, okay my last two hit then... followed by 23+ for every roll the next round.

 

[Maxperson]

That might be because we're all long-timers here and know that putting forward this argument would be a fast-track to red text and getting booted...

Nah. I think it's more likely because we're all long-timers, so we know that the game is incredibly flexible and can encompass all sorts of playstyles and rules changes, so we wouldn't put forth a one true way argument.

 

[Aldarc]

Which is why each DM has to decide where the line between guidelines and rules falls, and it'll fall in a different place for each one. I suspect you and I are at different ends of this: you seem to treat a lot of things as being rules that I would treat as mere guidelines.

And arguing about guidelines as if they were rules is likely to get nowhere fast.

 

[Maxperson]

you can't make an NPC do something either

No, but it's far more likely that the DM will be unsure how an NPC will react to a social skill than a player with his PC. That means rolls against NPCs due to the outcome being in doubt before a roll is called for.

 

[Lanefan]

Then how come, after using this method for the last 6 months, there have been zero arguments at our table? I mean, this is in a West Marches campaign with 3 different DMs and 14 additional players? Is my table an outlier? Or is the 5e DMG variant on "Player's Award Inspiration" ok after all?

Are you using the version where players give each other inspiration or the one where players claim it themselves, or a hybrid?

Question: do you keep any sort of track of how often each player (not character, player; as a WM-style campaign often involves multiple PCs) receives inspiration? How often they give it out? How often they self-claim it?

I ask because if the answers to those three questions turned out to be fairly close to equal* I'd say you're an extremely lucky group. And something of an outlier. Either that, or your players have collectively meta-realized that giving out lots of inspiration slightly tilts things in their favour in the long run.

* - for each question individually, i.e. if the "received" range is between 9 and 12 over a several-session span (or, say, in a range of 1.2 to 1.5 times per session, if not everyone attends every session) that's pretty equal.

Most groups I've been in, a meta-currency system like that would cause more headaches than it solved simply due to some of the personalities involved.

 

[Lanefan]

Funny, Jeremy Crawford said RAI is that you can’t make a PC do something with an ability check

The question sometimes with what he says is whether he's speaking for the designers as a whole or just for himself, as in "this is how I do it".

And this ain't new: 1e had the "Sage Advice" in Dragon and it had the same problem...and sparked the same arguments as to its degree of officialness, particularly in home games.

 

[Faolyn]

If you think I'm the sort to backtrack, then you haven't been paying attention.

Nope. Just plowing on ahead!

We weren't talking about "many people" though. We were talking about one NPC in a specific situation.

And yet you've said that you would use that as a clue for other NPCs. And you're still telling me that my PC thinks that fidgeting equals lying.

Again, you are wrong because, as I've said, I don't expect the players to do anything with the clue. It's there. Remember when I said sometimes they pick up on it and sometimes they don't and that's fine? It was in this very thread. The only thing I care about is that the clue is present when describing the environment. That's what I can control. I don't care about things I can't control.

I have a hard time believing that you don't expect the players to do anything with the clue. Do you not have inquisitive players, or players who jump on any unusual thing you point out? Or do your players just dutifully absorb your flavor text and then move on?

And what happens if the PCs miss the clue? Do you use the Three Clue Rule, or just shrug and let the players go on obliviously because they missed their opportunity?

In this game, we're all equally at the DM's "mercy" - the rules say the players can only describe what they want to do and the DM narrates the results of the adventurers' action, sometimes calling for a roll. Though I don't think it's a matter of the DM being merciful but just understanding and performing the DM's role reasonably well. If you asked me to roll an ability check, I would remind you that I need to hear your goal and approach before I decided if an ability check was called for and ask you to be reasonably specific about what you're doing in-character to get at the information you want. You know, act in a way that is immersive for everyone at the table. You get that, right?

Sure. My PCs action is to make an Insight check to see if the guy is lying about what he just said. Would you allow that? Or would you demand I justify the necessity of the roll? Would "because you gave him a trait, which usually means the NPC is special in some way" count as a justification?

 

[Lanefan]

Bear in mind that lanefan plays in a group where players pass notes to the DM accusing each other of cheating. So their mileage may seriously vary.

So I have to ask: if you're a player and you saw a fellow player outright cheating at your table what would you do?

 

[Maxperson]

The question sometimes with what he says is whether he's speaking for the designers as a whole or just for himself, as in "this is how I do it".

The question was from players asking if social skills could make a PC do or think something. He was very clear that they cannot. No, "this is how I do it." anywhere near there.