D&D 5E Using Suggestion To Thwart Zone of Truth

[Lyxen]

The wording of Zone of Truth says that it detects a "deliberate lie". Deliberate means "intentional." Since a creature compelled to knowingly lie is not doing so voluntarily, I would rule that Suggestion could loophole Zone of Truth. Even if the creature is well aware that they are lying, the lie is not deliberate on their part - it's compelled.

The simple fact that you have to change the word used in the description of the spell to try and prove a point shows that this simply is not the intent of the spell.

When someone is compelled by suggestion for an action, the action is certainly deliberate.

As a DM, I would allow this tactic to succeed but the Suggestion spell would have to be worded carefully. "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!" would work.

And it would still absolutely be a lie.

 

[LordEntrails]

So, suggestion can be used to force a creature to tell a lie in a ZoT, which the ZoT will indicate it is a lie. Sounds good.

 

[Burnside]

When someone is compelled by suggestion for an action, the action is certainly deliberate.

Considering that the word deliberate literally means intentional, by definition it can't be compelled. You can't be compelled to intentionally do something. I'm not "changing the word". I am referencing the actual definition of the word "deliberate."

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I'm usually all for a broad reading of Suggestion, but it is about making them decide on a course of action, not changing their beliefs about what is true. Now it may have an incidental impact on what they believe is true. Presumably if that stormtrooper had been put under a zone of truth he would have testified that he believed that those were not the droids they were looking for.

Beliefs about the what is true seem close enough to the normal matter the spell deals with that I would consider allowing it as an offbook use on a willing target for a "we are going to be subjected to a zone of truth" scenario. Using one 2nd level concentration spell to thwart another seems balanced enough. But I would insist that the magic could only be stretched in such a way because the target of mind control was willing, because otherwise we risk vastly increasing the ability of an already very powerful spell.

 

[Lyxen]

Considering that the word deliberate literally means intentional

No, the word deliberate means deliberate. Intentional does not even appear in the few definitions of the word that I've looked at.

, by definition it can't be compelled.

That is your personal interpretation of all these words. On the other hand, because saying something untrue is deliberately caused by a spell, I clearly see that it's deliberate.

You can't be compelled to intentionally do something. I'm not "changing the word". I am referencing the actual definition of the word "deliberate."

Which definition are you using ? Clearly not the ones I've looked at.

 

[Burnside]

No, the word deliberate means deliberate. Intentional does not even appear in the few definitions of the word that I've looked at.



That is your personal interpretation of all these words. On the other hand, because saying something untrue is deliberately caused by a spell, I clearly see that it's deliberate.



Which definition are you using ? Clearly not the ones I've looked at.

Oxford English Dictionary.

 

[Oofta]

If the reason for lying can bypass a zone of truth then zone of truth becomes meaningless. If you are deliberately lying, you are intentionally, knowingly lying. Why you are intentionally lying doesn't matter. If could be because of magical compulsion, it could be because if you tell the truth someone will murder a loved one. The nature of the compulsion doesn't matter.

If you don't like the spell, ban it or nerf it somehow don't try to weasel out of it based on the meaning of the word chosen. The game is written with normal usage in mind, not legalize.

 

[Lyxen]

Oxford English Dictionary.

You're not using the definition, you are using a potential synonym, and I'd like to point out that the second synonym is "planned", which is clearly applicable to suggestion. As for the definition, it says "done on purpose rather than by accident", which is clearly the case when you are compelled, so it IS deliberate.

 

[Mort]

This actually seems pretty straight forward. If the target of zone of truth knows it's lying (and fails the saving throw) it can't utter the lie - suggestion in effect or not.

Suggestion compels a target to pursue a course of action "to the best of its ability..." So the target will try to lie to the best of it's ability, even if compelled to tell the truth by zone of truth.

But if it knows it's lying, failing the zone of truth saving throw will prevent it from doing so (lying).

A better use of suggestion (as alluded to above) would be to suggest that a target answer a certain way if asked about something - for something it doesn't know is a lie.

 

[Lyxen]

A better use of suggestion (as alluded to above) would be to suggest that a target answer a certain way if asked about something - for something it doesn't know is a lie.

This is exactly what I said in one of my very first posts: " The only case that would work for me would be if the target does not know the truth and is asked to answer in a specific way, because then it's not a lie, but it prevents a caster from using it on himself, since he knows the pronouncement to be a lie."