Using Weapon Finesse with a Double Weapon

[Hypersmurf]

You can fight with two two-handed weapons?

You're fighting as if you were fighting with two weapons, and the weapon you're doing it with is two-handed...

I have not otherwise seen a rule that allows you to attack with a two-handed weapon in one hand, whether it's your off-hand or not.

Well, the lance, for one...

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You're fighting as if you were fighting with two weapons, and the weapon you're doing it with is two-handed...

Well, you have to couple that with the "one-handed weapon and a light weapon" part.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, you have to couple that with the "one-handed weapon and a light weapon" part.

With the 'for purposes of penalties associated with two-weapon fighting' part from the Equipment section? Or the 'normally treated as a one-handed and light weapon' part from Power Attack?

Because "Add half Str bonus to damage with off-hand attacks" is not a penalty. "Add Str bonus to damage" is not a penalty. "-4 to sunder and disarm checks with a light weapon" is a penalty, but not one associated with two-weapon fighting.

So these things are irrelevant to the line from the Equipment section that mentions one-handed and light, and they're only relevant to the line from Power Attack if it's globally applicable.

You can't just 'couple' "as if fighting with two weapons" with another rule unless it's a relevant rule.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I'm thinking about house ruling double weapons so that you get 1x Str modifier when using it via TWF. That is, if I had a Str of an 18 (+4 mod), I would deal +4 Str damage with each end. I think it makes double weapons more appealing.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You have me confused, Hyp. Explain to me again how the rules under Two-Weapon Fighting (the special attack, not the feat) do not apply in your summary. How is "You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon" not a place "in the Core Rules where reference is made to treating it as anything other than a two-handed weapon?"

Since when is a light weapon equal to a two-handed weapon? I must have missed something in the argument, but now I'm plain confused.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You have me confused, Hyp. Explain to me again how the rules under Two-Weapon Fighting (the special attack, not the feat) do not apply in your summary.

Because the penalties apply as if the off-hand weapon were light. Only the penalties. Strength bonus to damage is not a penalty, therefore the double weapon is not treated as a light weapon (therefore not a two-handed weapon) for purposes of Str bonus to damage based on the rules you just quoted.

It might be treated as a light weapon for purposes of Str bonus to damage based on the rules in the Power Attack text, but only if that text is globally applicable.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Isn't one advantage of the Monk, that his Flurry of Blows isn't considered an off-hand attack, and therefore he gets full Str damage to each attack?

 

[Legildur]

It might be treated as a light weapon for purposes of Str bonus to damage based on the rules in the Power Attack text, but only if that text is globally applicable.

Out of curiosity Hype, would YOU treat that text in Power Attack in a similar way to the old heavy crossbow rule in the 3.0 PHB? That is, globally applicable.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Because the penalties apply as if the off-hand weapon were light. Only the penalties.

But, there are two sentences. Why doesn't the first hold weight of its own? This is the whole section from the SRD:

Double Weapons
You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But, there are two sentences. Why doesn't the first hold weight of its own?

It does.

You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons.

What are the effects of that?

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

So, what are the effects of the first sentence? I can get an extra attack with the off-hand end of my two-bladed sword, with lots of penalties. That sentence is taken into account, and that's its effect.

For purposes of determining those penalties, what sort of weapon is it? Considered Light (per the second sentence).

For purposes of determining everything else, like Str bonus to damage, what sort of weapon is it? Two-handed. It's a two-bladed sword.

Unless there's a rule that says otherwise somewhere.

The sentence is taken into account, but the sentence doesn't change that I'm using a two-handed weapon. It does let me make an extra attack as if I were fighting with two weapons, but doesn't change the weapon I'm fighting with.

Out of curiosity Hype, would YOU treat that text in Power Attack in a similar way to the old heavy crossbow rule in the 3.0 PHB? That is, globally applicable.

Sure - I don't want 1.5x/1.5x or even 1.5x/.5x Str bonus to damage with double weapons, so my ruling is essentially the same as the FAQ's.

Isn't one advantage of the Monk, that his Flurry of Blows isn't considered an off-hand attack, and therefore he gets full Str damage to each attack?

One feature of the Flurr of Blows is that "When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands."

When using sai, this is an advantage - your 1x is not diminished, and your .5x is increased. When using a staff, it's potentially a disadvantage - your 1.5x is reduced to 1x.

-Hyp.