Using Wish to increase effective caster level

[Rassilon]

Really just seeking opinions. How do people feel about using Wish to increase effective caster levels, as if by the Practiced Spell Caster feat or the orange ioun stone ?

Is it within the power of a Wish (in your considered RAW opinion)?

Is it different if the individual is a 25th level arcanist looking to get his caster level up to 30 or a 25th level split class caster looking to get his caster level up to HD ?


Cheers,

Rassilon.

 

[azhrei_fje]

In general I don't like in-game spells or effects that affect the metagame. So I'd say "no". The only way to increase caster level is to go up a level.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case with a certain ioun stone and with the bead of karma. I allow those to work as stated in the book, but they cannot be crafted by NPCs or PCs. The knowledge of their creation is lost.

 

[Sledge]

Anything lost can be found.

 

[Sledge]

Obviously without house-rules the wish doesn't cover this normally, so it would qualify as a dangerous usage.
As a DM I wouldn't twist too bad if it was very temporary, but a permanent increase would have me laying out the nastiness to the player. To be more permanent have the PC wish for an item which boost caster level.

 

[wuyanei]

This is a dangerous usage. Bascially wishing for a higher level.

If I were the DM, the result will mostly depend on who is granting the wish spell.

If the caster himself cast the wish, I would drain 5000 XP +3000 XP from him and create an Orange Ioun stone in his hands. Or perhaps a custom item such as 'Headband of Practiced Spellcasting' that grants free use of the Practiced Spellcaster feat. I might even, depending on the situation, make the items take the form of a magical tattoo, so that it cannot be stolen or lost (but it can still be disjointed if things really get out of hand).

If the wish was granted by some higher power as a reward, I would have the higher power create the items for the character (without actually using the wish spell-like ability -- IMC spell-like abilities that emulate spells with XP cost drain XP from the user). If the wish is granted by a mostly benevolent power, I would give the character the best possible result, within reason -- most likely a magical tattoo that functions an orange ioun stone. If the wish was granted by a malevolent power, expect the power to twist the wish so that it requires the least work from itself -- and inflicts the most suffering on the character, simply out of spite. The power will likely just have a minion steal a orange ioun stone or similar object from some other archimage -- or even better, steal an orange ioun stone that the archimage accidently cursed in the creation procedd, as so decided not to use...

If the wish were granted by a non-sentient object, the most straightforward method will be used. The wish will likely teleport the nearest caster-level boosting object into the character's hands. If that object actually belongs to a level 35+ archimage who is now wrathfully scrying for his lost property... well, tough luck.

And finally, if the character were trying to coerce wishes from outer-planar creatures, such as an djinn, efreet or even pit fiend, well.... at the very least (if a djinn who isn't too angry), the wish will fufill the caster's request by turning the character into a wild mage -- each time he casts spells, add 2d6-7 to his caster level. For the others, transforming 1d3 of the character's non-caster class levels (if any) into levels of tainted sorcerer (UA) sounds nice. Of course, there is always the time-tested classic of plane shifting the character into the Tomb of Zago-ephot, advanced 156HD hecatoncheires, which is buried ten thousand miles beneath the Grey Wasts of Gehenna.

"I wish to become a more powerful spellcaster!"

"Granted," plane shift, teleport "Now all you have to do is defeat little Zago-ephot here, and you will most certainly become a more power spellcaster in no time at all." Open door, push character inside, close door. Oh, did I forget mention the fact that the entire inner-sanctum of the Tomb is under a diety-level anti-magic field?

So, for your answer. Yes, such a wish does indeed exceed the 'safe use' terms of a wish spell. If I were the DM, I might, depending on the situation, use other methods to grant your character the effects of his wish, without giving him a straight, innate, caster-level boost. However, making such a wish will always be dangerous to your character, and reality also might choose to punish your character for his greed.

Good luck with your wish spell!
Yanei Wu

 

[Rassilon]

OK, pretty strong reaction against.

Is everyone remembering that I am talking about effective caster level for both hypotheticals? So no more spells per day or spells known, but all level based effects increase (like the Heirophant).

Are both cases the same?

1: Full Caster looking to have an effective caster level of HD + 1.

2: Split caster (Ftr 10 / Sor 10 say) looking to increase effective caster level to HD.

I am asking in two roles: as a DM for my PCs and NPCs, and as a player with a split caster.

Considering the second case specifically, bear in mind that there is a single Feat "Practised Spell Caster" that improves effective caster level by 4 <= HD.

Is the concern balance, i.e.: Is +1 eff. caster level more powerful than +1 to a stat?;

or that the Wish has a set list of safe modes, and this isn't one of them?


Rassilon.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Yes, rather alot of needless hate.

I'd say some bonus is definately within the power of a wish, I'd just be strongly concerned with this becoming a routine thing. If they need a CL 30 spell to pierce door y and the mage uses wish is high dramatic fashion, I'd be fine with it.

If the wish is a daily occurance so the buffs last longer/are undispellable/cheesy crap it'd be annoying.

I'd be inclined to have it have serious non-permenant side effect that with any decent spellcraft check would be obvious. Intelligence/Charisma damage/drain would be a good canidate. Generally serious enough to be an issue but not 'Your character is crippled for life now stop getting outside of the box'.

Edit: So all my comments were geared towards a short term buff type of power. Long term would make me alot more leery.

 

[wuyanei]

+1 eff. caster is most certainly better than +1 to a stat. Consider what five such wishes will do -- +5 caster level + Holy word... or, for that matter, ten such wishes or more.

For the two purposes you dicussed, both would be beyond the powers of wish, but to a different degree. Full Caster looking to have an effective caster level of HD + 1 is basically a orange ioun stone -- worth about 30000 gp -- that stacks, cannot be lost and cannot be disjointed; while split caster (Ftr 10 / Sor 10 say) looking to increase effective caster level to HD is basically an extra bonus feat -- about 7500 ~ 12500 gp.

Actually, I would say that the orange ioun stone is broken as written, since the +1 caster level from multiple orange ioun stones should not stack (but do stack by RAW).

So yes, I am am aware that you are talking about caster levels only. My opinion is that as an item, the effects that you wish for are beyond the stated parmeters but not unbalancing nor broken -- thus not deserving of DM wish-twisting punishment. As a stackable, innate ability boost, it is beyond the scope of wish and potentially broken besides. I would not allow such a wish to be granted.

 

[TheGogmagog]

In my opinion the safest bet with wish is to duplicate spells. First shot is if there is or even could be a spell that would so something similar. If you are looking for a permanant boost, you are out of luck there.

The second choice is to see what magic items are available, or could be created. you've got the ioun stone, which is already slotless and continious. Your othere reference as mentioned it the Prayer beads or Candle of invocation. More bonus, but limited duration. I'd use the ioun stone to determine exp cost. If you were interested in casting multilple times for multiple caster levels, the cost would go up by the bonus squared each time you cast it. Meaning you would be well into epic levels until you could afford the exp.

I would allow the bonus to be inherent and not simply summon you a magic item, but would use the magic item as a reference for determining the exp required.

If you are casting the wish from a scroll or ring, only the 5000 exp version is allowed so no magic item creation.

As with anything that goes outside the defined bounds of the spell, it's only up to your DM.

 

[wuyanei]

In general I don't like in-game spells or effects that affect the metagame. So I'd say "no". The only way to increase caster level is to go up a level.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case with a certain ioun stone and with the bead of karma. I allow those to work as stated in the book, but they cannot be crafted by NPCs or PCs. The knowledge of their creation is lost.

I simply house-rule that the bonus they grant are competence bonuses, so the effects do not stack. The value for a higher-bonus ioun stone is 15000 gp x (bonus squared) x 2 (non-slotted), which shuts down anything beyond +2 for non-epic play. I also doubled the price of the karma bead to 40000 gp -- the karma bead gets a 80% discount because it is limited to 1/day for 10 min -- 15000 x (4 x 4) / 5 = 48000 gp. I handwave the 8000 gp away, rationalizing that the beads are cheaper because only divine casters can use it.

The result works well, I believe. Spellcasters still want the +2 version, but it does hurt a bit. Most opt for +5 CL bonus ioun stone, usable 1/day for 10 min -- worth 150000 gp. (+5 bonus is a limit -- +8 is just to much, IMHO)

Just my two cents!

Edit: To clarify, most of my replies are made with permanent +1 CL boost in mind. A temporary boost would not be so troublesome. If a character wants to use wish to boost his CL by up to +10 for the next spell alone, I would likely just allow it with no extra charge -- even though it might result in insanity when combined with bead of karma and holy word. For a single use, the XP price is high enough. I would require the next spell to be cast within a certain amount of time... perhaps within the next 1d6+4 minutes.

I might also allow the character to gain 'virtual items' -- a token on his character sheet that can be 'used' to cast a spell at higher level. The XP cost for the token will vary, but I think 10 (Spell Level) x (CL boost) x 10 (Epic penality) x 2 XP might be a reasonable amount. This is, incidentally, twice the XP cost difference between a scroll of a 10th level spell written at the boosted caster level and a scroll of a 10th level spell written at your caster level. The XP cost is in addition to the 5000 XP of the wish spell. The tokens remains until they are used.