D&D 3E/3.5 [v.3.5] Polymorph

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] Not confusing anything here. Fly is inferior in any environment except when you need to out maneuver an opponent.
Raptorans have no penalty when flying with a load or wearing armor, which makes them at least equivalent the majority of the time (so long as your DM is using weight rules). Also, supposing your DM does have you roll a knowledge check to know Raptorans, so long as Raptorans actually exist in your world, it will be common knowledge (DC 10), and taking a 10 will net you the necessary information.

 

[Greenfield]

@Greenfield Not confusing anything here. Fly is inferior in any environment except when you need to out maneuver an opponent.

Or when you need to fly faster than a speed of 40.

Or in a dungeon, or other place where there may or may not be enough space to spread wings.

Or if you're in a pit or shaft and need to fly straight up.

Now if it were up to me I'd swap the durations of Polymorph and Alter Self, but that's just me.

 

[Sekhmet]

Or when you need to fly faster than a speed of 40.

Or in a dungeon, or other place where there may or may not be enough space to spread wings.

Or if you're in a pit or shaft and need to fly straight up.

Now if it were up to me I'd swap the durations of Polymorph and Alter Self, but that's just me.

See: "maneuverability".
Alter Self allows for burrowing and climbing, so dealing with shafts/narrow/cramped areas is still within the constraints of the spell, making it more versatile as a whole.

Consider the reasons a Wizard is better than Fighter. The more versatile you are, the more useful you are, the more likely you are to succeed.
Fly is more versatile than using Alter Self to turn into a Raptoran, except in duration and spell level, but Alter Self doesn't -stop- at being able to Fly. It has a large variety of other uses, which makes it a better spell.

Alter Self shouldn't be a 2nd level spell, plain and simple. If we made it lv4, pushed Polymorph to 5, at Baleful Polymorph to 7, it would be a lbit more of a balanced group of spells.

That you have access to Alter Self long before you have access to Fly (and with a higher duration than Fly) is the issue. A Wizard, with infinite spell book space and no limit to number of spells known, might pick up both. A Sorcerer will pick the spell that is more versatile and easier to make useful at a high level.

A great comparison is having a spell that grants you +4 to any stat for 10 minutes/level at level 2, and one that grants +6 to a specific stat for 1 minute/level at level 3.
You're almost always better off using the longer lasting buff, except in those occasions where you really, really need that extra point.

 

[Greenfield]

I agree that Alter Self is powerful because of its versatility, as is Polymorph.

I disagree that either one is better than Fly, for flying.

Personally I'd drop Fly to 2nd, or increase its duration to 10 min per level. Or both.

I'm interested in this game you play where Wizards have infinite spellbook space. You don't make Wizards make Spellcraft checks to learn new spells from scrolls or other sources? You don't make them pay 100 gold per spell level/page to copy them into their books? You don't use weight/encumbrance rules for carrying all those books? (A spell book is 3 pounds, per the SRD).

Okay, I'm kidding. Wizards don't have an inherent limit, other than cost, on how many spells of any given level they can have in their books. But cost is a real limit, as is availability (at least at my table). You need a major city to find casters of the high levels, and even they won't always have the spells you're looking for.

By the rules, you pay 50 gp per spell level (usually) for the privilege of copying a spell from some other caster's book. Then pay 100 gp per level to copy that spell into your own book.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] Of course I have them make Spellcraft checks, pay for spells (when researching or copying from other wizards), pay for books, and factor encumbrance.

For flying, you can Polymorph into different Ecto Fragments (usually 60' Perfect), Silthilar (40' Perfect), Will-o-Wisps (50' Perfect), or any number of Fey with Good and better flying, all while netting additional benefits.

Dropping Fly to lv2 would make it a much better spell.

 

[Greenfield]

Well, if you're going to compare the 4th level Polymorph to the 3rd level Fly, I'm not at all surprised that Fly comes out on the short end. It should.

Essentially none of the things you just listed, though, can be done with the lower level spell we were talking about, Alter Self.

But I think we're in agreement that Fly and Alter Self need to switch places, level wise.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] You said "I disagree that either one is better than Fly, for flying." I was just showing you how you were wrong, so you had a better understanding.

I'm not sure Fly should be moved from lv3. Like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Haste, Fly has this iconic place at lv3 that should be a basis of comparison for other lv3 spells.
Alter Self is far and away better than other level 2 spells, and beats many lv3 spells out for versatility and overall usefulness, but feels about at home at lv4.

I agree that Alter Self should be changed, I'm not sure that I agree that Fly should be changed (except, perhaps giving it a little extra duration).

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] You said "I disagree that either one is better than Fly, for flying." I was just showing you how you were wrong, so you had a better understanding.

I'm not sure Fly should be moved from lv3. Like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Haste, Fly has this iconic place at lv3 that should be a basis of comparison for other lv3 spells.
Alter Self is far and away better than other level 2 spells, and beats many lv3 spells out for versatility and overall usefulness, but feels about at home at lv4.

I agree that Alter Self should be changed, I'm not sure that I agree that Fly should be changed (except, perhaps giving it a little extra duration).

 

[kingius]

How is ANY of this broken?

Cannot an enemy mage simply Dispel Magic at your polymorphed wizard and put him right where he does'nt want to be... on the front lines, toe to toe with various nasties all about to shred his low hitpoints to ribbons?

While I'm at it, cannot an enemy spellcaster simply polymorph/alter self (etc) right back at the party, using their own tactics against them, like for like?

Are your DM's simply unable to figure this stuff out?

 

[Sekhmet]

No one used the "broken" word in this thread, as far as I can recall, and no one was arguing that it was, indeed, broken.

However, to address the core of your concern, [MENTION=85123]kingius[/MENTION]; (assuming it were broken) is it any less broken a tactic when the first thing that comes to your mind is to use that tactic as a counter to it?
Is Planar Binding less broken because enemies can do it to? What about Shapechange, Gate, or any variety of other spells?
Is Synchronicity, Font of Power, and Affinity Field (used in combination with a familiar) any less broken because the DM can do it right back (assuming he ever gets the turn to do it)?

No, it really isn't. Not only will your players call "BS" (and rightly so), but it wouldn't be fun for anyone.