D&D 3E/3.5 [v.3.5] Polymorph

[kingius]

Did you even read the very thread you are commenting on?

Here are some quotes that say that Polymorph and AlterSelf and others are 'broken' FROM THIS THREAD:


"Do not use the Polymorph spell. It is broken, and no matter what they tried to do to fix it, it didn't stop it from being broken."

"I much prefer the actual Polymorph spell. Has a moderate duration for utility uses, and you can buff other PC's with it. Alter Self, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange are broken."

"Polymorph was not created broken, but had brokenness thrust upon it."

"Shapechange is just lolz broken."


I agree with you that these spells and abilities are not broken. Whatever the PC's can do, so can NPC's. If the PC's abuse something in a game system, they should be expecting their enemies too as well. That's the best fix for so many 'rules unbalanced!' from players who want the rules changed just because it suits them, or because on paper something seems too powerful. If only Wizards of the Coast took that into account (and some of the people on here who make demands on them to change things) we wouldn't have revision upon revision upon revision.

Leave polymorph be. If your players abuse it, abuse it back. It's players 1, DM 1. Nothing unbalanced about that.

 

[Sekhmet]

Whatever the PC's can do, so can NPC's. If the PC's abuse something in a game system, they should be expecting their enemies too as well. That's the best fix for so many 'rules unbalanced!' from players who want the rules changed just because it suits them,

This only works on the most minor of culprits. When the DM plays the Synchronicity (or any number of other) trick on the players, they throw their Mt. Dew in his face and walk out the door.

 

[kingius]

Believe me, if anybody ever threw mountain dew in my face and walked out the door, they'd never be coming back into my game again. Are your players prone to throwing such tantrums often? If you've read the Dungeon Master's Guide, you'll know what it says: kick out the troublesome players.

If a player cannot handle defeat at the hands of the DM, who has every advantage on his side, what on earth is he doing playing the game in the first place? Or, indeed, any game where there is a game over condition? Remember, players, the rules work both ways. Fair is fair. The DM is _neutral_ and not on your side.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=85123]kingius[/MENTION] Again, you're missing the point. My players are very laid back individuals, and when we bring in ringers or new players, the first thing that is mentioned is that everything in the game should be played out in game, and not leak into reality.
However, when a player decides to use hilariously broken mechanics (ie: Synchronicity, since I've already mentioned it in the thread) to gain unlimited actions per round, abuses Planar Binding for infinite wishes by level 9, or any variety of other cheesetastic tomfoolery, you can't just write it off and say "oh, it's okay, I'll just have my bad guys do it too and ruin the fun for everyone".
How fun is it when your DM says "Your spot check succeeds, far in the distance you notice a lone man walking towards you about 500' away. He waves his sword at you, and before you can act, walks the 500' in a calm, collected fashion, and hacks you all to death over the course of a few minutes."
Or possibly, running through a dungeon at ECL10, "...before you lay the ruin of a temple, carved into the walls of the very earth are intricate runes that denote the deity who lived here long ago, but has since been forgotten. Suddenly, and without warning, a wave of power washes over your party. And then, immediately afterward, all of you are struck by a Finger of Death with no save."

Cheese is cheese, when I (the DM) use it, when the players use it, when anyone uses it. It doesn't make the game more fun, it makes it frustrating and stupid.
Also, you're right about one thing. If someone were to throw such a tantrum in my games, I'd ask them to leave and wouldn't invite them again.

 

[kingius]

I'm right about more than that: in your scenario, once something like that happens, you'll find players in quick agreement about whether exploiting the system again is a good idea. There'd be quick assent to stepping away from such 'cheese' because... shock... the DM can use every single exploit they come up with, too.

Everybody wants to have fun at the table, I agree. But lets put it into perspective and bring the context back. Polymorph is not pointing a sword at someone from 500' away and they die, or unlimited actions per round. Nor is alter self, etc.

Anyway, if you are so worried about people pointing fingers at targets and them dying, you are free to ban finger of death and power word kill and disintegrate and so on from your games. Perhaps after just such an occurance where the DM used it on a player and it was no fun and so there is group agreement to veer away from them.

 

[Sekhmet]

I'm right about more than that: in your scenario, once something like that happens, you'll find players in quick agreement about whether exploiting the system again is a good idea. There'd be quick assent to stepping away from such 'cheese' because... shock... the DM can use every single exploit they come up with, too.

Everybody wants to have fun at the table, I agree. But lets put it into perspective and bring the context back. Polymorph is not pointing a sword at someone from 500' away and they die, or unlimited actions per round. Nor is alter self, etc.

Anyway, if you are so worried about people pointing fingers at targets and them dying, you are free to ban finger of death and power word kill and disintegrate and so on from your games. Perhaps after just such an occurance where the DM used it on a player and it was no fun and so there is group agreement to veer away from them.

I don't believe Alter Self/Polymorph are broken. They're fine in my games.
I was showing you broken mechanics - infinite action loops and free wishes, to name just a few. "Waving a sword and then walking 500' and hacking people to death" is an example of an infinite action loop. "Finger of Death, no save" is an example of having access to free Wishes at an early level.

The fact that you agree that groups would reconsider using such tactics, in itself, means that you agree that some mechanics are broken and shouldn't be used at all, by the players or the DM.
I take it one step further than you do, and say that a player should think about their idea BEFORE bringing it to the table, to avoid the "everyone dies, no save" situations that occur when the DM uses the same broken mechanic back.

 

[kingius]

You're on the right lines but not quite on the money. When people say that a rule is 'broken' Wizards offers revisions of it to 'fix' the 'broken' rule. Note the last part of that. What happens is we get revisions. Then people claim that these are, also, 'broken'. So we get another set of revisions. And so on.

What I am saying is, Wizards should leave these rules (Polymorph, alter self, shapechanging) alone. Why? Because any exploit the players come up with, the DM can use, so it is ALWAYS effectively balanced. This applies to other abilities and spells too, to varying extents. To widen the arguement further, players will always complain about various rules. Some complaints will be with merit and some will not be. Some players will find exploits in the system. Some will then use them, thinking they have got 'one over' on the game itself. When they have the same exploits used against them, they will back off from that strategy pretty fast... and the game balance is restored.

That, in a nutshell, is where I am coming from.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=85123]kingius[/MENTION] Having infinite actions or unlimited wishes, using AMA to become an immortal, invulnerable deity with all the powers of all the deities (by level 5, no less) with infinite ability points (and thereby skills and saves), or any of the other awesome cheese provided by loopholes/ability combinations/the developers not thinking when creating does not mean "balanced because the DM can do it, too".
What it really means is that the core of the issue is broken, either by design or lack of forethought, and that no one should use it because it ends games. It's like saying "I win" and walking out the door. There is no counter, because once you do it even one time, you've already won.

To take it just one step further, you could look at it this way. "Hi, this is my character sheet. Okay, cool. My familiar uses Synchronicity. Then, he uses Synchronicity. I use Font of Power. Okay, what are the rewards for finishing this epic campaign you spent months preparing? I just beat it." or "Okay, I use Energy Charge to grant myself NAN HD. Then, I use Kiss of the Shadows to give myself NAN reach, and Precipitate Complete Breach to be able to reach across planes. What are the rewards for killing everything in your universe?"

 

[kingius]

Or you could look at it like this: the DM simply has the infinite reach of this supposed 'universe killer' reach a point of antimagic somewhere in the universe that snuffs out the magic. Perhaps thats exactly where the character must go to continue the campaign. Or perhaps the character accidentally reaches into a black hole. It's infinite /reach/ not infinite vision, after all. ;-)

Perhaps cantor might be of interest here. He's a famous mathematician that deals in multiple infinities. Your character has only got one inifinity of hit dice, after all, putting him at 1 IHD, whereas there are others in the universe with multiple infinities of Hit Dice, right up to 20 IHD (and beyond, which we call epic IHD). Perhaps this is what lies at the other end of the black hole... a place where these abilities have suddenly become normalised because everything is infinite.

You're welcome to try any and all the exploits that you've got in my campaign. Remember, whatever you can do.. the DM can do better.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=85123]kingius[/MENTION] Actually, it's an EX ability, AMS doesn't affect it.

With AMA, any conceivable reality that can interact with you at any level is game. If something or someone has an ability you want, you have it. If a creature in another universe has more something than you, then you have more something than it does by an Nth degree.
Likewise, with infinite actions, even if something has 20 times more HD than you (which is not possible), you can still poke it with a fork for 1HP of damage until it dies from it.

You also have infinite vision, because you have all forms of divination at will (thanks, Vecna). With infinite actions, you can use them as often as you want.

Regarding your singularity idea, it would be quite impossible to "accidentally" reach into a black hole. They're visible if you know what you're looking for, and probably don't "pull you in" like is shown in sci-fi.
There are some things that can't be beaten except by the DM saying "No".