D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

For a quick estimate of where WOTC rates it:

Take the save DC.
Subtract 10.
Subtract the bonus due to the ability mod (Ghoul's CHA mod).

The end result is right about the spell level of the ability.

Ghoul's touch at Lvl 1, Ghast at Lvl 2.

I suppose you could use this method to figure out where WOTC rates all kinds of special attacks with save DC's...

Absolutely. Thats how I did a few such things.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I have comments up through page six.

Okay fire away!

First of all, I can't tell you how loathe I am to point things out after you went through the trouble of calculating CR's for every monster. Every thing I mention is gonna grate on you. Sorry in advance!

Thats okay mate it was inevitable, and as the Terminator would say "I have detailed files" so correcting any problems won't be the major undertaking this time around.

ONE

How Do Factors Work?

Round down all fractions if the total is 4 or more,

Meaning, drop all fractions.

Yep.

if the total is less than 4 apply the result to Table 1-1.

Why does the cat (-1.035) round down to -1.5, when the table shows an entry for -1.25? I'd be inclined to round it to -1, or -1.25, but it doesn't seem clear why you'd skip the -1.25 entry. I'd "fix" this by changing the CR, as well as clarifying the text to say, "Round down to the next lowest value on the table: -1.01 drops to -1.25, -1.26 drops to -1.5, etc."

Yeah my good mate Anubis pointed out there was a problem in this table when we were chatting last night.

Oh, and by the way, that's a comma splice; you want a semi-colon.

Cheeky.

TWO

1. Character Levels

All Class Prestige Levels: CR 0.8 / level

What happened to 1 CR = 1 Level?

Its still 1 CR = 1 Level when you add PC equipment

I just wanted to keep the factors seperated.

What is the correct CR of an 8th level human rogue (including all factors)? You'd add CR for levels, + CR for wealth? (And assuming that we're rounding off the racial modifier for humans to 0, per the DM's option?

8 x 0.8 (8 Class Levels) = 6.4
8 x 0.2 (8 levels of PC wealth) = 1.6
8th-level Rogue = CR 8 (with PC wealth)

Clearly I think I know the answer to this one, but for someone who's reading this thing linearly, they've just heard you say how important 1 Level = 1 CR is, then you seemingly break that rule. A simple reminder that "Player characters add +.2 CR/level for equipment (see section X.X)" would help here.

Mmmm. I removed that at the last minute too.

The Fiendish template is identical to the celestial template except for the following:

... and presumably Smite Evil changes to Smite Good.

Noted.

Half-Celestial Templates

CR variable +3.2 (1 HD) to 9.87 (20 HD)

I found the word "variable" confusing here. What other HD scaling effects would cause the CR to be variable? It would be helpful to flag the factors that vary by HD. What if I want a 6HD Half-Celestial? It's not immediately apparent how to calculate that, so I find this section (unfortunately) useless.

I suspect it's some application of the golden rule...?

To be honest the Half-Celestial/Half-Fiend Templates are a complete annoyance, they really are a bugger to try and explain without resorting to two pages each, with multiple powers and multiple spell-like abilities edependant on HD, its like 10 templates rolled into one.

There are probably minor flaws in those two templates somewhere.

Lich Template: Skill Bonuses (+56) CR +1.12

I have more to say on skill bonuses later. I flag this here and now because it jumps out at me in relation to the human "racial" factor coming up, which caps the value of +1 skill point per level at CR +.1 (.02 x 5 max).

I think there needs to be some distinction between fixed, racial bonuses to skills (+8 to Hide, for example) versus bonus "discretionary" skill points (+1 skill point per level for humans; greater number of skill points per HD for other types (Fey and Dragons have a lot of skills per HD if I recall...)

I might simply fix this by more specifically referring to "skill bonuses" as "Racial Skill Bonuses" which is the terminology already used for fixed bonuses.

I am more concerned with the fact the skill bonuses in the lich template are different from the skill bonueses in the example within the skills factor..

THREE

Challenge Rating Modifier For Size

I'd love it if this section broke down all the factors for each size that you ARE including.

Its simply a question of time and space. We took a vote, the rest of my staff here said flesh it out and I said no. Unanimous.

Quick question: Why did you decide not to include natural armor, since WOTC considers this part and parcel of a size increase when advancing monsters?

Simply because all Natural Armour is not derived from size. It would have complicated things if I hadn't removed NA from the size factor.

TRAITS

Challenge Rating Modifiers For Traits

Quick point: It occurs to me that in places you call them challeng rating factors, in other places, challenge rating modifiers. Were I an editor (and sometimes I am) I'd fight hard for consistent terminology.

Well the term factors is used to describe the bonus derived from some feature. Whereas the term modifier is used within a feature itself.

eg. Damage Reduction is a factor. But the modifier to multiply the +0.1/point of DR is a modifier.

TYPE TRAITS

I'd like to see every one of the types broken down here to show where the factors are-- not half of them here, and half of them in Table 1-3. I'd like to see Aberrations broken out, for example.

But they only have Darkvision. Again its a question of space.

FOUR

RACIAL TRAITS

DM's discretion to ignore the impact of core racial traits less than +1 CR.

A few points here.

First, it seems all the core races are .5 or less. Why not ignore .5 or less?

...because I knew then someone would come along and say "But hey the dwarf is +0.51".

I also wonder about the golden rule when applied to player character races. I am not sure why a player should get a "discount" to ECL by adding factors that exceed his starting 1 HD.

It would probably be best not to ply the Golden Rule with regards PCs.

What are the CRs for planetouched and genasi, out of curiosity?

Are there any official races that add more than +1 ECL without also adding HD?

FIVE

8. FULL ATTACK

I liked this better when it was based on the attack bonus. What happens when a marilith uses a dagger? Does her CR drop?

Well firstly a word on the Marilith - that monster is badly determined by WotC. Theres no way it should be wielding Large Longswords (ie. Greatswords) in every hand - Its torso is medium size for goodness sake.

Regarding the attacks, yes the Marilith would represent less of a threat if it were wielding daggers instead of greatswords.

Seems this works fine for creatures with natural weapons, but breaks when the creature can use manufactured weapons.

It doesn't break it simply changes.

If you advance the marilith's size, for example, you'll naturally go in and add factors for size; but you'd also have to go back and recalculate this section as well.

Probably. But its all there in black and white how to do that.

Again, all in all I think this section was better off when it was based on number of attacks and BAB.

I think people will warm to the new method - its a lot fairer I think.

Ideally, the system should work such that you can change any given factor without too many "cascading" changes. (The Golden Rule would be the one big exception I can see-- but it's easily enough to fix if you keep a tally of your total factors.)

Well I think there are always going to be one or two cascading factors, but its nothing we can't determine.

That's it for now... I wish I had more hours in the day, my friend... But after all the hard work you did, I am doing my best to give this a very careful read.

Appreciate the feedback mate!

 

[BryonD]

Hi UK,

Sorry for a couple remedial questions here......

What is your ultimate definition of CR?
You provide the official definition on page 1, but on page 15 you refute that definition. (I agree with your refutation, btw, so I am not arguing, just inquiring).

As an example of my question: Page 16 offers that a great wyrm red dragon is CR59 and EL24. I take this to mean that a party of four 24th level characters should be able to face this encounter. Is this correct? If so, how much experience would they gain?

It seems that, perhaps, you have converted CR into a more abstract value designed to ultimately lead to accurate EL calculation. If I use the standard method of xp calculation, L24 characters would get a ton of xp from defeating a CR59 creature. Would it be more appropriate to use EL in place of CR for xp calculation? (thus, about 1800 xp per character)

I realize that you may be assuming the reader knows certain details that are simply not repeated in this section. So sorry if I am just way behind the curve.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Would it be more appropriate to use EL in place of CR for xp calculation? (thus, about 1800 xp per character)

As far as I understand it, that's how his system does work. You match PEL vs. EL to determine XP.

I have a question of my own, though, because the table seems so wonky at low CRs.

How many XP does a party of four 2nd level characters get for defeating a CR2 creature?


Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Knight Otu mate!

Downloaded. I'll read it soon.

Hey! I appreciate the support.

(Admittedly, I've been quite out of the loop. )

I just hope you have been keeping well mate. Thats the main thing.

 

[BryonD]

As far as I understand it, that's how his system does work. You match PEL vs. EL to determine XP.

I have a question of my own, though, because the table seems so wonky at low CRs.

How many XP does a party of four 2nd level characters get for defeating a CR2 creature?

Wulf

Thanks

I guess I should revise one thing.
CR is not completely abstract. It appears to mean that a PC class character with full gear is CR equals character level. (So page 1 definition 2 prevails) It then defines everything else in relation to this. By necessity, the idea that difficulty of encounter scales with CR falls away and definition 1 is effectively discarded.

 

[Leopold]

hell has frozen over...downloading now.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi UK,

Hi ByronD!

Sorry for a couple remedial questions here......

Fire away dude and no apologies necessary.

What is your ultimate definition of CR?
You provide the official definition on page 1, but on page 15 you refute that definition. (I agree with your refutation, btw, so I am not arguing, just inquiring).

As an example of my question: Page 16 offers that a great wyrm red dragon is CR59 and EL24. I take this to mean that a party of four 24th level characters should be able to face this encounter. Is this correct? If so, how much experience would they gain?

Okay, see Page 15, Table 2-1: Challenge rating/Encounter Level Relationship.

See how CR 59 is equal to EL 24

Now lets look at your PCs the same way.

Lets say you have a Party of four 24th-level PCs (The average level of the Party is therefore 24)

CR 24 is equal to EL 19 (there are four PCs in the Party so you don't increase their PEL as per Table 2-5: Party Encounter Level).

So the party are PEL 19 facing an EL 24 monster. The difference is +5 EL. Therefore thats quite a difficult encounter for them.

If the Party defeat the monster they recieve 24 (their average level) x 1600 (for an encounter +5 EL above their PEL) which is 38,400 EXP (as per Table 2-8, though you can just look it up on Table 2-9 on page 18); thus 9600 EXP each.

It seems that, perhaps, you have converted CR into a more abstract value designed to ultimately lead to accurate EL calculation.

CR still equals +1 per Level.

But what I have done is outline the proper relationship between CR and EL.

If I use the standard method of xp calculation, L24 characters would get a ton of xp from defeating a CR59 creature. Would it be more appropriate to use EL in place of CR for xp calculation? (thus, about 1800 xp per character)

See Table 2-9: Determining Experience Points.

I realize that you may be assuming the reader knows certain details that are simply not repeated in this section. So sorry if I am just way behind the curve.

Not at all mate, no apologies necessary. Its always easier to have someone take you through any rules the first time whenever possible.

If you still have any questions, no matter how small don't hesitate to ask mate.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

I have a question of my own, though, because the table seems so wonky at low CRs.

How many XP does a party of four 2nd level characters get for defeating a CR2 creature?

600 EXP.

Therefore 150 EXP each.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Leopold mate!

hell has frozen over...downloading now.

What the heck kept you!? Thats almost 24 hours now.