• COMING SOON! -- The Awfully Cheerful Engine on Kickstarter! An action comedy RPG inspired by cheerful tabletop games of the 80s! With a foreword by Sandy 'Ghostbusters' Petersen, and VTT support!
log in or register to remove this ad

 

D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hello again mate! :)

xanatos said:
p. 6: you shouldn't use dices of damage, you should use medium damage (d8 = 4.5 dam.) (the reader of the guide will probably have to convert the dices to average damage....

I was really only trying to simplify things for people - while at the same time plant the seeds for how things like that should be rated.

xanatos said:
I don't know many Divine effects that use d3!)

Well if Bane is d12; Aligned is d8; Energy is d6 and Force is d4 what is something thats better than force going to be rated as...? ;)

xanatos said:
and then you could compact the Permanent Damage to CR 0.1 / 0.5 points of Perm Dam (the same for p. 7 Ray Attacks and on p. ? for Touch attacks).

I don't see the point of that.

xanatos said:
And here we discover that you multiply multipliers (under Mummy Rot: x2 and x4 = x8... The standard rule is x6. You should put a note at the beginning of the chapter).

I'll give it some thought.

xanatos said:
Energy Resistance: +2CR/10points = +1CR/5points?, and then a better question: should we use "quantized" units or not?

My idea to use 'quantized' units for things like Breath Weapon was my attempt to

xanatos said:
and How many decimals do you keep during the calculation of CR?

As many as you want. I keep as many as my calculator allows. I would never add anything with more than three decimal places though (Spell-like Abilities and Summon)

xanatos said:
You should put a link in Breath Weapon, Gaze Attacks, Ray Attacks, Touch Attacks to specific versions of them (Energy Drain, Disease...)

Mmmm.

xanatos said:
Gaze Attacks: if you put elsewhere the note about doubling, tripling etc, you should put it even here.

Again its simply a question of space.

xanatos said:
p. 7 : Immunities: you should add Weapons (as for Tiny Swarms)

Perhaps even in the Unusual Abilities section; since as far as I know thats the only time I saw them.

But again the thing is no matter how many abilities I rate there will always be more.

xanatos said:
Do Integrated Cleric spells include the Bonus Domain spell? And what about the Domain special ability?

Yes (first) and no (latter).

xanatos said:
Spell Like abilities and Summon: in the first one you have put a row for "At Will", in the second one you haven't.

Probably because I hadn't encountered a monster that could summon 'At Will'

Thanks again for the feedback mate, much appreciated.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

Wulf Ratbane said:
Personally I wouldn't allow spells such as this to have a continuous effect. It's essentially an "Instantaneous" spell that really only has a duration of 1 round because that's the only way you can use it. But it really makes about as much sense to make continuous as magic missile.

This needs some consideration.

..and for the record I don't fancy taking on those revised CRs again come what may. I still haven't recovered from the Energy Draining that is 600+ revised CRs. I wouldn't wish that on Hitler. :(

Wulf Ratbane said:
Sorry! I didn't mean that. Neither have I! Just wanted to make sure you had 'em; in particular there's some good stuff in the MM3.5 about creature design that, at the very least, you can point at and sneer. ;)

That chapter was an interesting exercise in 'talking' without saying much of note. :p

Wulf Ratbane said:
Sent again to your hotmail account, and eagerly awaiting your reply...

Okay I will reply tomorrow so don't be too eager. :p

I think you could be onto something with your idea about multiple opponent EL. It looks simpler than my method; and simplicity is always my mantra.

By the way for anyone who has emailed me (you know who you are) I will reply tomorrow. Its getting a bit late.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Upper_Krust said:
I think you could be onto something with your idea about multiple opponent EL. It looks simpler than my method; and simplicity is always my mantra.

:wink:

Yes, I think I just may be... I hope I can give you something back you can use.

Looking forward to your reply (tomorrow).

Wulf
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

Wulf Ratbane said:
:wink:

Yes, I think I just may be... I hope I can give you something back you can use.

Looking forward to your reply (tomorrow).

Okay I am going over your stuff now, I will definately email you later though, I just want to study things more closely.

...fools rush in, yadda yadda. ;)
 

Hey UK

I seem to have trouble being able to post as a reply to your post. So here goes as a separate post:

I get the Troll to be ECL 7 this way:

Troll CR 7.4 (from the pdf - I don't know where you get the CR 8.2 you're talking about)

9 lvls of wealth = 1.8 CR

Troll PC = 7.4 + 1.8 = 9.2 CR

9.2 * 0.85 (silver rule) = 7.82, rounded to 7.

Troll ECL 7.

So??

-Sorcica
 

kreynolds

First Post
Sorcica,

I'm curious...where are you getting the 9 levels of wealth? If the trolls CR is 7.2, then wouldn't you only factor 7 levels of wealth? So...

7.2*0.2=1.44+7.2=8.64
*apply silver rule*
Total CR = 7.344?
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Sorcica said:

Hi Sorcica mate! :)

Sorcica said:
I seem to have trouble being able to post as a reply to your post.

These boards can be weird sometimes.

Sorcica said:
So here goes as a separate post:

I get the Troll to be ECL 7 this way:

Troll CR 7.4 (from the pdf - I don't know where you get the CR 8.2 you're talking about)

9 lvls of wealth = 1.8 CR

Troll PC = 7.4 + 1.8 = 9.2 CR

9.2 * 0.85 (silver rule) = 7.82, rounded to 7.

Troll ECL 7.

So??

Well remember that Ability Scores apply as part of the Traits factor, so when we determine the Trolls racial traits we take a closer look at its ability scores and in doing so we can see that it gains +18 to ability scores instead of the +10 (from Large size) in the CR.

So its ECL before equipment (or the silver rule) is +8.2. That becomes 6.97 after the silver rule. When we add equipment 6 levels of equipment is 8.17 (+1.2); 8 levels of equipment is 8.57 (+1.6). Applying the silver rule to equipment in this case is irrelevant since you still end up with ECL 8.
 

kreynolds said:
Sorcica,

I'm curious...where are you getting the 9 levels of wealth? If the trolls CR is 7.2, then wouldn't you only factor 7 levels of wealth? So...

7.2*0.2=1.44+7.2=8.64
*apply silver rule*
Total CR = 7.344?

Like this:
7 lvls of wealth = + 1.4 CR

Troll CR 7.4 + 1.4 = 8.8 CR

We then need one more lvl of wealth to account for 8th lvl = +0.2 CR

8.8 + 0.2 = 9.0

One more lvl to account for 9 th lvl = 9.2 CR

9.2 * 0.85 (silver rule) = 7.82 rounded to 7.
 

Upper_Krust said:
Well remember that Ability Scores apply as part of the Traits factor, so when we determine the Trolls racial traits we take a closer look at its ability scores and in doing so we can see that it gains +18 to ability scores instead of the +10 (from Large size) in the CR.

But of course you have already calculated that into the Trolls initial CR? I was under the impression that stats beyond that included in size adjustment counted as +/- 0.1 a piece?
Have I totally misunderstood this??

So its ECL before equipment (or the silver rule) is +8.2. That becomes 6.97 after the silver rule. When we add equipment 6 levels of equipment is 8.17 (+1.2); 8 levels of equipment is 8.57 (+1.6). Applying the silver rule to equipment in this case is irrelevant since you still end up with ECL 8.

Now I'm really confused. On p. 1 you state that all factors should be added first. Then check for golden and silver rule etc.

So what you're saying is that one should calculate the CR for equipment after the silver rule? Doesn't that begin to mess up creatures like the Balor :confused:

Where does it say so in v.4?

Oh and here's one to ruin your day Krust. Where's the CR listing for the Githyanki and the Githzerai? :p
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hi Sorcica mate! :)

Sorcica said:
But of course you have already calculated that into the Trolls initial CR? I was under the impression that stats beyond that included in size adjustment counted as +/- 0.1 a piece?
Have I totally misunderstood this??

The Trolls CR simply includes the ability score increases for size. But if we closely examine it we can see that it gains much more than the typical size increases.

I think you can 'get away with it' for monsters but not for PCs.

Sorcica said:
Now I'm really confused. On p. 1 you state that all factors should be added first. Then check for golden and silver rule etc.

So what you're saying is that one should calculate the CR for equipment after the silver rule? Doesn't that begin to mess up creatures like the Balor :confused:

Where does it say so in v.4?

No what I said was in the Troll example, the silver rule didn't change the figures so there was no point using it.

8.2 + 1.2 (6th-level equipment) = 9.4 (7.99 after silver rule)
8.2 + 1.4 (7th) = 9.6 (8.16 after silver rule)
8.2 + 1.6 (8th) = 9.8 (8.33 after silver rule)

Therefore the Troll is ECL 8

Sorcica said:
Oh and here's one to ruin your day Krust. Where's the CR listing for the Githyanki and the Githzerai? :p

They are right beside the Beholder; Displacer Beast; Mind Flayer and Umber Hulk locked in WotCs revised OGL laws.

I temporarily circumnavigated those laws for the epic monsters for this technically playtest pdf, but the epic monsters are supposedly going to be updated before the release of the IH.
 

Upper_Krust said:
Hi Sorcica mate! :)

The Trolls CR simply includes the ability score increases for size. But if we closely examine it we can see that it gains much more than the typical size increases.

I think you can 'get away with it' for monsters but not for PCs.

Hi Krust.
But then is not really possible to use the CR as ECL assumption in v.4. One has to doublecheck? :(

No what I said was in the Troll example, the silver rule didn't change the figures so there was no point using it.

8.2 + 1.2 (6th-level equipment) = 9.4 (7.99 after silver rule)
8.2 + 1.4 (7th) = 9.6 (8.16 after silver rule)
8.2 + 1.6 (8th) = 9.8 (8.33 after silver rule)

Therefore the Troll is ECL 8

Ok, so apply all factors and then use silver rule. You only changed the order this time around because it made no difference?

They are right beside the Beholder; Displacer Beast; Mind Flayer and Umber Hulk locked in WotCs revised OGL laws.

I temporarily circumnavigated those laws for the epic monsters for this technically playtest pdf, but the epic monsters are supposedly going to be updated before the release of the IH.

Ahh..I see
Curse you, WotC!

So what would you rate them? ;)


The v.4 is great, I just think is times a bit more to fully grasp than v.3 did. But I'll get there!

See ya.
 
Last edited:

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Firstly can I say to Wulf that I just spent 50 minutes typing out a reply to your last email, thought I would have one last look at the XLS file you sent (I had been having problems with XLS I keep getting errors although it was letting me view the spreadsheet okay) only to have my email somehow deleted giving me a bit of a sickener. :(

I'll reply again first thing in the morning - incidently I received the exact same email a few hours ago - so there must have been some delay the first time you sent it. :confused:

Sorcica said:
Hi Krust.

Hiya mate.

Sorcica said:
But then is not really possible to use the CR as ECL assumption in v.4. One has to doublecheck? :(

Well you could still use it, but in a similar vein to the core race racial traits its a matter of accuracy.

I think PCs are far more likely to exploit such advantages than their NPC counterparts.

Sorcica said:
Ok, so apply all factors and then use silver rule. You only changed the order this time around because it made no difference?

Yep.

Sorcica said:
Ahh..I see
Curse you, WotC!

I wasn't complaining - less CRs for me to revise.

Sorcica said:
So what would you rate them? ;)

No idea, I honestly don't even want to look at them to be fair. :eek:

Lets call them v4's 'Fill in the blanks' section. I coloured in all the other monsters now you get to play with the crayons. :p

Sorcica said:
The v.4 is great, I just think is times a bit more to fully grasp than v.3 did. But I'll get there!

I think its just a matter of trying it, until you actually put something into practice theres always that uncertainty.

Sorcica said:

Thanks for the feedback mate.
 

Knight Otu

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
They are right beside the Beholder; Displacer Beast; Mind Flayer and Umber Hulk locked in WotCs revised OGL laws.

But shouldn't that include the slaadi? At least are not in the SRD. (As well as the terms Guardinal and Eladrin, although the corresponding celestials are in the SRD).
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hi Knight Otu mate! :)

Knight Otu said:
But shouldn't that include the slaadi? At least are not in the SRD. (As well as the terms Guardinal and Eladrin, although the corresponding celestials are in the SRD).

Here are the monsters that are no longer open content:

beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar’ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Upper_Krust said:
Firstly can I say to Wulf that I just spent 50 minutes typing out a reply to your last email, only to have my email somehow deleted giving me a bit of a sickener. I'll reply again first thing in the morning.

UGH. Sorry bout that... I'd love it if you can post that reply here on the boards-- I'm about to head in to work and have a long business trip today, but I can check these boards for a few hours yet. Would love to have a reply to think about during that trip.


Wulf
 

kreynolds

First Post
Sorcica said:
Like this:
7 lvls of wealth = + 1.4 CR

Troll CR 7.4 + 1.4 = 8.8 CR

We then need one more lvl of wealth to account for 8th lvl = +0.2 CR

8.8 + 0.2 = 9.0

One more lvl to account for 9 th lvl = 9.2 CR

9.2 * 0.85 (silver rule) = 7.82 rounded to 7.

Ugh. Is it really supposed to be reapplied like that? Doesn't make much sense if it is. You're effectively applying wealth levels to wealth levels to wealth levels, which is awfully clunky.

UK. Is this how it is meant to work? Does wealth apply to wealth apply to wealth apply to wealth?
 

Knight Otu

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Here are the monsters that are no longer open content:
I am aware of them. However, going by the SRD, the slaadi and the group names of the celestials I've mentioned, are also not open content. (Also some of the advanced creatures, such as the mummy lord, are not in the SRD, but some are).

Or has the SRD been changed when I wasn't looking?
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

Wulf Ratbane said:
UGH. Sorry bout that...

Par for the course with this crazy computer. :rolleyes:

Wulf Ratbane said:
I'd love it if you can post that reply here on the boards-- I'm about to head in to work and have a long business trip today, but I can check these boards for a few hours yet. Would love to have a reply to think about during that trip.

Will do, although I'll email you the last thing you discuss in that email.

Here you go...

1. Your new method for determining multiple opponent EL.

What happens if you have a Great Wyrm Red Dragon (CR 59) and 15 Skeletons (CR +10)

CR 69 = EL 25

16 characters = EL -8. So that would be EL 17.

So a great red wyrm with multiple weaker opponents actually rates weaker than such a dragon on its own!?

Or did I miss something? :confused:

2. Your new method for determining experience points.

If you have party size along the top and EL difference along the side (on the table) there is no room for CR/Level. Doesn't that mean that DMs/PCs will have to multiply for every level other than 1st. Whereas at least my Table gives them 30 levels to simply 'look up' and apply a figure. I am not yet convinced if your updated table for EXP is actually better/simpler and therefore necessary.

3. My reason for the changes in Multiple Opponent EL based on individual power.

I decided to split the grouping based on the EL spread. Firstly -8 to 0 and then -8 to +8.

Giving us an EL +8 and +16 spread respectively.

Individual EL -9 or worse opponents have a notably weakened impact on proceedings. Whereas EL -17 or worse opponents have virtually no impact on proceedings.

The analogy is of course Humans versus a Tank. No matter how many you throw at the Tank you won't win.

So at a certain point additional numbers fail to add anymore to EL.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate !:)

kreynolds said:
Ugh. Is it really supposed to be reapplied like that? Doesn't make much sense if it is. You're effectively applying wealth levels to wealth levels to wealth levels, which is awfully clunky.

UK. Is this how it is meant to work? Does wealth apply to wealth apply to wealth apply to wealth?

Well what you want to do is match ECL (with Equipment) and Equipment Level.

So if something is CR 7 we know that adding seven levels of equipment will make it ECL 8.4 (7 + 1.4)*, we want to try it with eight levels of equipment.

*8 (ECL) is not the same as 7 (levels of equipment).
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hello again mate! :)

Knight Otu said:
I am aware of them. However, going by the SRD, the slaadi and the group names of the celestials I've mentioned, are also not open content. (Also some of the advanced creatures, such as the mummy lord, are not in the SRD, but some are).

Or has the SRD been changed when I wasn't looking?

Are you sure!? I'm going to have to go over this thing again with a fine toothed comb. :confused:
 

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top