D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cheiromancer mate!

Here's a different question: how much is +1d6 of sneak attack damage worth? A feat (0.2 CR)? Or more than that?

Its worth one feat (+0.2); as CRGreathouse (thanks C.R.) mentioned.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

What mentioned Outsider?

Very often, monsters don't use the same attack progression as the classes. That is why their attacks/damage are not rated the same way.

Okay.
My confusion came from an example with an outsider race that gets a bonus feat every HD. When this outsider is 20 HD it will be CR 22 with PC equipment. So will a human fighter. My question was: Who wants to play the fighter? People have then mentioned class skills and proficiencies, which I think at the most are valid for a +1 lvl adjustment (so 19 HD at CR 22, still way better than a fighter 20).
People then mentioned iterative attacks, but these are supposedly included in the outsider HD with a minor adjustment (say 4 attacks with a longsword +0.825 CR)?
This is what I do not understand. Why do I all of a sudden have to refigure a creature if it is to be played as a character?

BTW, Krust, you say in reply to my example of being able to platy a Hill Giant at lvl 1 by adjusting HD and abilities a la Savage Species, that your system is solely for determining CR. Exactly my point. A hill giant would be arounfd CR 12-13 with PC wealth. But is it quite simple to create a lvl progression for a hill giant so that it fx at 5th lvl isn't more than CR 5. The same could be done with the outsider. Why should I then all of a sudden start to add fighter attack progression into the formula?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Okay.
My confusion came from an example with an outsider race that gets a bonus feat every HD. When this outsider is 20 HD it will be CR 22 with PC equipment. So will a human fighter. My question was: Who wants to play the fighter?

Your rating of the outsider CR is incomplete since you have omitted its attacks/damage.

People have then mentioned class skills and proficiencies, which I think at the most are valid for a +1 lvl adjustment (so 19 HD at CR 22, still way better than a fighter 20).

Okay.

People then mentioned iterative attacks, but these are supposedly included in the outsider HD with a minor adjustment (say 4 attacks with a longsword +0.825 CR)?

No. Attacks and damage are not already factored into Outsider HD! (This is an incorrect assumption you have made).

BAB IS factored into Outsider HD (and indeed all monster HDs) but NOT their attacks, nor their damage.

eg. Dragons get Fighter BAB, BUT THEY DON'T GET A FIGHTERS ITERITIVE ATTACKS!

This is what I do not understand. Why do I all of a sudden have to refigure a creature if it is to be played as a character?

You don't. The problem you have is that you have not added the 20HD Outsiders attacks/damage to its CR. Hence the reason you are getting incorrect results when juxtaposing your Outsider and a 20th-level Fighter.

BTW, Krust, you say in reply to my example of being able to platy a Hill Giant at lvl 1 by adjusting HD and abilities a la Savage Species, that your system is solely for determining CR.

No. What I said was it was set up to facilitate CRs.

You could easily break down Hill Giants or other monsters as Class Levels using my rules, but thats simply not something I am going to do for you. I only have limited time and space. This CR/EL system is an appendices to the Immortals Handbook, not the other way around...although given the time expended on the bloody thing lately you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

Exactly my point. A hill giant would be arounfd CR 12-13 with PC wealth. But is it quite simple to create a lvl progression for a hill giant so that it fx at 5th lvl isn't more than CR 5. The same could be done with the outsider.

Indeed, its easy.

Why should I then all of a sudden start to add fighter attack progression into the formula?

You don't. What you do is remember to add the Attacks/Damage CR factor to your Outsider. That then gives you the proper CR.


...don't worry we'll get there in the end mate!

 

[Cheiromancer]

So how is version 4.2 coming along? DUKC wants to know!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cheiromancer mate!

So how is version 4.2 coming along? DUKC wants to know!

I need to update all the examples to the new rules; fix the golden/silver rules for all the dragons (I have their CRs done but with the HD factors changed I need to go over the golden and silver rules again); then double check the basics and that should be that.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Your rating of the outsider CR is incomplete since you have omitted its attacks/damage.

No. Attacks and damage are not already factored into Outsider HD! (This is an incorrect assumption you have made).

BAB IS factored into Outsider HD (and indeed all monster HDs) but NOT their attacks, nor their damage.

eg. Dragons get Fighter BAB, BUT THEY DON'T GET A FIGHTERS ITERITIVE ATTACKS!

You don't. The problem you have is that you have not added the 20HD Outsiders attacks/damage to its CR. Hence the reason you are getting incorrect results when juxtaposing your Outsider and a 20th-level Fighter.


No. What I said was it was set up to facilitate CRs.

You could easily break down Hill Giants or other monsters as Class Levels using my rules, but thats simply not something I am going to do for you. I only have limited time and space. This CR/EL system is an appendices to the Immortals Handbook, not the other way around...although given the time expended on the bloody thing lately you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

You don't. What you do is remember to add the Attacks/Damage CR factor to your Outsider. That then gives you the proper CR.

I understand it now. But say that I said that a longsword was the typical weapon for these outsiders. That would add 0.825 CR which might just make it a +2 lvl ECL so it would be 18 outsider HD at CR 22. I would say that the fighter is still inferiour. The outsider could just spend some of its many feats on Toughness and voila!
Am I getting it right thids time around?

Krust, I would like to add that I'm very grateful for the time and effort you invest in answering people on this thread. It must be frustrating for you mate, when what you really want to do is finish up the IH.
I for one, and I think I speak for others as well, am very impressed by your professionalism and eternal nice attitude. I don't know how you can control yourself sometimes when I and others keep asking and asking....
So here' a BIG MIGHTY CHEERS to you mate.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

I actually tried to reply here yesterday but the Forum ate my post.

I understand it now.

Phew!

But say that I said that a longsword was the typical weapon for these outsiders. That would add 0.825 CR

Actually that would add +1.125 CR

+0.45 (Longsword) +0.225 (Iteritive) +0.225 (Iteritive) +0.225 (Iteritive)

which might just make it a +2 lvl ECL so it would be 18 outsider HD at CR 22.

It would be about +3 ECL at 20th-level, which I think seems fair.

I would say that the fighter is still inferiour. The outsider could just spend some of its many feats on Toughness and voila!

The Outsider gets better saves; better skills and 9 extra feats over 20 levels.

The Fighter gets better hit points; better proficiencies and doesn't have the +3 ECL penalty.

Seems fair to me.

Am I getting it right thids time around?

Mmmm.

Krust, I would like to add that I'm very grateful for the time and effort you invest in answering people on this thread.

Don't mention it mate.

It must be frustrating for you mate, when what you really want to do is finish up the IH.

Only having to constantly rework the Revised CRs annoys me because its such vacuous, soul draining, time wasting procedure to do all 600+ CRs over and over again.

I for one, and I think I speak for others as well, am very impressed by your professionalism and eternal nice attitude. I don't know how you can control yourself sometimes when I and others keep asking and asking....

I find that 30 minutes of Kingpin deathmatch lets me work out any stress.

So here' a BIG MIGHTY CHEERS to you mate.

I appreciate the love dude. Premature festive hugs and kisses to everyone reading this.

 

[Halivar]

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, or is glaringly obvious in the revised rating guide. How do you compute the CR modifier for d10 energy breath weapons (e.g. dragons)?

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, or is glaringly obvious in the revised rating guide. How do you compute the CR modifier for d10 energy breath weapons (e.g. dragons)?

UK rates 1d6 energy damage at 0.1, so I imagine 1d10 energy damage would be worth 0.157 (since 1d10 averages 1.57 times more than 1d6).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Halivar!

I'm sorry if this has been covered before,

No apologies necessary mate, I am always happy to help.

or is glaringly obvious in the revised rating guide.

I actually did revise it for the latest incarnation based on feedback.

Here is the new assessment.

Damage Dealing Breath Weapons
CR +0.02/point of Alignment based damage
CR +0.06/point of Divine based damage
CR +0.03/point of Energy based damage
CR +0.04/point of Force based damage
CR +0.2/point of Permanent damage

How do you compute the CR modifier for d10 energy breath weapons (e.g. dragons)?

Well, remember the old (v4) method takes the average damage, so simply divide the average by 3.5 (1d6) then apply the +0.1 per dice principle.

eg. Great Wyrm Red Dragon 24d10 = 128
128 divided by 3.5 = 36.57 (approx.)
So we know the modifier for that Breath weapon will be +3.657

Incidently under the new system it would be +3.84. Which I think is close enough.

Anyway I hope the system has helped you a little; watch out for the newest incarnation, it really simplifies the whole EL side of things (thanks to some ideas by Wulf Ratbane among others) and I think everyone will like it.

Also thanks to CRGreathouse for responding in my stead. I appreciate it mate.