D&D 5E vampire bites

[akr71]

I dunno... I read the rules differently I guess.

I would say that yes, the charmed person is a willing target of a vampire's bite, but once the bite actually happens and the charmed victim takes damage he or she has a chance to save versus the charm. The next round, if the victim is still alive and the vampire continues to drain blood (3d6 necrotic IIFRC), another save attempt is made.

 

[Imaculata]

Saying that a failed saving throw against a vampire's charm is save-or-die - given a ruling that the charm isn't potentially broken by a bite - is forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that, in most cases, the charmed PC isn't going to be alone. They are going to be able to do something about it. @pukunui's players just chose not to.

There are plenty of reasons not to like "save-or-die" effects, but this isn't "save-or-die."

But you literally just said that unless the PC is not alone, that it IS save or die. Sorry Iserith, but I'm going to disagree with you here (and I don't do that often).

Vampires are master manipulators, and trying to get one player separated from his party is the one thing he will try to do (with charm!). All it takes is one failed save to convince the player to follow him. Getting a victim to be alone is exactly the purpose of charm. Once a player is charmed, he has no choice if he wants to be alone with the vampire.

Which means you are at the mercy of your fellow players whether you live or die.

 

[iserith]

But you literally just said that unless the PC is not alone, that it IS save or die. Sorry Iserith, but I'm going to disagree with you here (and I don't do that often).

Vampires are master manipulators, and trying to get one player separated from his party is the one thing he will try to do (with charm!). All it takes is one failed save to convince the player to follow him. Getting a victim to be alone is exactly the purpose of charm. Once a player is charmed, he has no choice if he wants to be alone with the vampire.

Which means you are at the mercy of your fellow players whether you live or die.

It's a "save-or-die-if-your-DM-sets-things-up-a-certain-way-and-also-you-didn't-take-any-precautions-and-also-your-fellow-players-let-your-character-die."

Not the same thing as the traditional "save-or-die" in my view.

 

[Imaculata]

It's a "save-or-die-if-your-DM-sets-things-up-a-certain-way-and-also-you-didn't-take-any-precautions-and-also-your-fellow-players-let-your-character-die."

Not the same thing as the traditional "save-or-die" in my view.

But I don't think there are many precautions you can take, and being so reliant on the actions (or inaction) of your fellow players for survival, feels unfair to me. A DM that introduces a vampire, will (hopefully) play that vampire to its strengths. That means the DM will set things up in a way that the vampire has an opportunity to separate the players, because that's what vampires do.

Ultimately to me, this comes down to what is fun for the players. Is it fun for your players to be lead to their death, with no second chance to break out of the charm? I don't think it is.

 

[iserith]

But I don't think there are many precautions you can take, and being so reliant on the actions (or inaction) of your fellow players for survival, feels unfair to me. A DM that introduces a vampire, will (hopefully) play that vampire to its strengths. That means the DM will set things up in a way that the vampire has an opportunity to separate the players, because that's what vampires do.

Ultimately to me, this comes down to what is fun for the players. Is it fun for your players to be lead to their death, with no second chance to break out of the charm? I don't think it is.

As I mentioned upthread, there are a ton of class features, spells, and other resources a typical adventuring party has to deal with charm effects. The easiest is a simple protection from evil/good spell which is a mere 1st-level slot that shuts this vampire ability down. I know, because my bard/wizard in CoS has this spell. It basically made Strahd into a chump when we faced him the first time. There are also a few very powerful magic items you can get in this adventure that makes vampires easy to deal with.

What's more, it's a team game. There's no reason in my view to assume that you shouldn't be relying upon the actions of your fellow players for survival.

I can't speak to what people find fun. Everyone has their own preferences. But to call this "save-or-die" is rather short-sighted in my view. As for leading players to their death, as long as they are aware of the risks - which clearly pukunui's players were due to previous encounters with Strahd - then it's fair game as I see it. They could do something about it, but apparently chose not to. It's only when they're not aware of the risks that it becomes unfair. And unfair tends to be un-fun for most people in my experience.

 

[Tormyr]

The Charm action's text is pretty clear: if anything harmful is done to a charmed creature by the vampire or its minions, the creature gets a new save. The bite is definitely harmful. There is no mention in the Charm action text that the charmed creature does not get a new saving throw if they were expecting the harmful action. The charmed creature gets a new attempt at the saving throw because the vampire did something harmful to it.

One optimal strategy for a vampire would be:
1. Charm PC
2. Separate PC from party
3. Chain/manacle/otherwise restrain PC
4. Start biting. Even if the PC makes the new saving throw, they are still restrained, and the bite attack can still be attempted (with advantage).

 

[Sk Qwerdy]

As an action, you can target one humanoid you can see within 30 feet. If the target can see you, it must succeed a Wisdom saving throw against 8 + your proficiency level + your Charisma modifier, or be charmed. The charmed target regards you as a trusted friend to be heeded and protected. Although the target isn't under your direct control, it takes your requests or actions in the most favorable way it can, and it is a willing target for your bite attack.
Each time you or one of your companions do anything harmful to the target, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. Otherwise, the effect lasts for 24 hours, until you are destroyed, until you on a different plane of existence than the target, or if you take a bonus action to end the effect.

NO SAVING THROW!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hbarsquared]

Get one of your players in on it. Have them make two PCs, one of which is to be taken at the onset. None of the other players know.

Then have the player pull out their second character, all good.

If the vampire spawn comes back later in the campaign, have the player resume control for an extra creepy session.

Absolutely requires player participation/consent, so choose the player wisely!

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Eh, as a DM, that's not my problem.

As long as the players are aware of the risk, it's on them to deal with it. Wander off on your own at your own risk.

I will add that there are a number of potent magic items in this module that basically make vampires into a bunch of chumps. Ruling on the side of the vampire in this particular case may even things out a bit.

Better stay behind the screen 24/7 then because the next time you decide to be a player someone will remember and......

Let's just say you better make lots of backup characters.

Sent from my SM-T820 using EN World mobile app

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Huh. Not as much consensus on this as I was expecting. Still not sure which way I should rule.

Of course, it only matters if Strahd can actually get a PC alone, but that shouldn't be too hard if the PC is charmed. All he has to do is say "Come with me." As long as he can stop the other PCs from following, he's sweet.

Is the vampire's charm really meant to be a save-or-die effect? I'm just not sure ...

Just my two cents but that is not Strahds style. If he would try this he would try minute the charm because he would enjoy it more knowing the victim agreed to his own demise freely.

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