Vampire the Masquerade 20th Edition version

[MortonStromgal]

As one who loves historical games I'd rather keep my religion, racism and everything else in. Dark Ages: Vampire, Mage, and Fae are some of my favorite RPGs of all times. Part of the fun was dealing with how people of the 1200s dealt with Jews, Muslims or basically anyone who believed something different than them. I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much if it did not offend my modern sensibilities, with real world issues that did happen. Brian de Bois-Guilbert from Ivanhoe is a perfect example of the vampire crusader I want to play, hes a horrible person but when it came down to it he cared about Rebbecca which is more than could be said of the other crusaders. Its that struggle that makes the roleplaying interesting.

 

[Stormonu]

Though I enjoy the nWoD's mechanics, I have plenty of good memories about my oWoD game (and my players at that time) that I would really like to pick this up. The 2E copy I have only has the original clans (Bruhah, Gangrel, Nosferatu, Tremere, Ventrue - that I remember) and I've been looking a decently priced one with all the clans in it (I kinda wish I hadn't pruned down my oWoD books to just the core rulebooks and still had the clan books).

I'm about 2 hours away from this, I think I might hop down there and try and pick it up. Or, hopefully they'll make it available through an online store.

 

[deinol]

Yeah, I'd be all over a Mage one.

Me too. Too bad I suspect that Werewolf would get this treatment first. And there is no chance we'll see one for Changeling or Wraith.

I kind of wish it was being revised to use the nWoD mechanics, but I guess that is too much to ask in a project of this type.

 

[wingsandsword]

oWoD really did have some hideously racist elements to it. As they said, WoD: Gypsies was the worst offender, but so many splats were painfully bad stereotypes.

nWoD had significantly superior game mechanics, and got rid of a lot of the more awful aspects of the oWoD:

The Vampire backstory being parallel to the Book of Genesis and offscreen Uber-NPC's in Caine and Lilith that only God Himself could stop (and if being the most powerful being physically on Earth was Caine's punishment for killing Abel, I think that was an epic divine mistake in that it wasn't "punishment" but vast reward), or the nigh-godlike Methuselahs and Antediluvians that had so much potential to upstage PC's in games, the downright arbitrary and ham-fisted ways they tried to prevent any kind of crossover-team-up (why the hell shouldn't a Dreamspeaker and Garou team up other than "it's bad", if a Kinfolk randomly Awakens he's now to be killed?), the ridiculous racial/cultural stereotypes. Not to mention the overall plot structure of Mage being heroic hippie wizards of the Traditions fighting "the Man" in the Technocracy or Werewolf with its structure of heroic hippie werewolves fighting "the Man" in the Pentex Corporation (but of course, the two heroic hippies have to try to kill each other if they ever meet, apparently). Or Wraith, the game for people who thought Vampire was too happy, hopeful and cheerful (or just plain couldn't let go of a dead PC from another game).

 

[pawsplay]

Also, I think I'd better not ask about your opinion on Black Dog imprint books. Some of these, including Human Occupied Landfill, were dark in more mature way, and as such, were quite disturbing.

I love H.O.L.

There is a lot of anger here. Again, I'll refrain from commenting directly.
I'll just say that in real life I try to get over my personal prejudices.

I am angry, but not because I am prejudiced.

I am not objecting to the presentation of racism in-character. I've watched Touch of Evil, Spike Lee's Bamboozled, The Color Purple, Believer, etc. I am just agreeing that the OWoD books are full of racism, irrespective of whether they were treating subjects of racism. WoD Gypsies was not a depiction of a world being racist toward Romani; it was itself a racist depiction of a besieged race. My impression that the books suffered from having being written, by and large, by white, middle-class hipsters writing from a privileged perspective.

Considering that Vampire was about an advantaged elite literally living on the blood of "lesser" beings, the potential for real-world themes to bleed through into the game setting is substantial. I think the writers should have known better, are accountable. Not necessarily bad people. But they made mistakes, bad ones, that in some small way, hurt people.

 

[pawsplay]

I can't identify the source, but this from a later, post-Gypsies Mage product:

"This same century also sees the birth of many of the modern 'gypsy' stereotypes, which... lead to the fanciful romanticization of 'True Romany' as singing, dancing, scarf-wearing vagabonds. This stereotyping is perpetuated throughout the 20th century through works of popular fiction, cheap horror movies, 'medieval' or 'Renaissance' re-enactment societies, and badly researched role-playing game supplements."

See there? That makes me feel good.

 

[deinol]

I have to say I'm really liking the way they've been engaging the public with the development of V20 on their blog. I think it is something WW should have started doing years ago. Reading the development has made me want to play Vampire again. Which is a feat since I always preferred Mage or Changeling.

 

[fanboy2000]

I love H.O.L.

Really? That's impressive because it usually disintegrates when exposed to sunlight.

I can't help but wonder if it was really supposed to be an RPG, or joke perpetrated on guy's editor that got out of hand.

 

[wingsandsword]

Really? That's impressive because it usually disintegrates when exposed to sunlight.

I can't help but wonder if it was really supposed to be an RPG, or joke perpetrated on guy's editor that got out of hand.

I've seen it actually run as a one-shot at a convention, so it's a (semi-viable) RPG.

However, yes, I think it was first and foremost written as a parody/comedy piece that took on a life of it's own.

The "Freebase" larp handbook in the Buttery Wholesomeness suppliment was a great riff on larping in general (and I think helped cement the idea that the whole thing really was meant as an elaborate joke)

 

[ruemere]

I can't identify the source, but this from a later, post-Gypsies Mage product:

"This same century also sees the birth of many of the modern 'gypsy' stereotypes, which... lead to the fanciful romanticization of 'True Romany' as singing, dancing, scarf-wearing vagabonds. This stereotyping is perpetuated throughout the 20th century through works of popular fiction, cheap horror movies, 'medieval' or 'Renaissance' re-enactment societies, and badly researched role-playing game supplements."

See there? That makes me feel good.

There is no denying that WWGS tried to backpedal on stuff they put into some of their products.

I'm also fine with a book being highly subjective, unsubtle provocation as long as I am told up front that this is a work of fiction. I reserve the right to drop the book in disgust though, if the quality of the book is disappointing.

That's why I begrudge and oppose stuff on the grounds of poor quality, instead of throwing negative adjectives at a publisher (certain F. game being one of few exceptions).

Thank you for being so reasonable.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Whizbang Dustyboots:
"WoD: Gypsy and the Ravnos stuff is no more acceptable than WoD: Jews would be."

Yet another example of blinding hate.
- WoD: Jews could be, for all we now, a fairytale of oppressed folk who valiantly fought against overwhelming adversities. Equaling specific manner of title building with unacceptable books is so... low.
- Ravnos are monsters. Villains. Bad. Evil. Inhuman. If you accept basic premise of WoD, you should be able to accept this.
- WoD: Gypsy is a tastless, low quality, fictional book. WWGS backpedaled on the book as much as they could. It's an old book by the way, their current products appear to oscillate between bland, almost politically correct stuff and stylized slasher porn. They learned to steer away from sensitive stuff, as apparently more people are offended by bad stereotypes than senseless violence.

PS2. I going to bow out of this conversation as I am not intending to start a crusade.