Vampire: The masquerade

[John Smallberries]

After a decade of trying, I think that WoD games read better than they play.

The setting is interesting, engaging and very creative. Each of the games I've tried (Vampire, Werewolf and Mage) contains endless possibilities to tell engrossing and meaningful stories. Top notch work all around, and White Wolf deserves a great deal of credit for all their efforts.

But every thime I get a group together to *play* one of 'em...ugh. Because balance takes a back seat to concept (nothing wrong with that, of course), it only takes a couple of bad apples in a group to send the game into s death spiral.

Basically, WW games are only as good as your group---and they DEMAND a really good Storyteller to keep everything running smoothly (a far cry from 3e, which pretty much runs on autopilot, but at a price).

 

[Darkness]

The moronic "Any 1's rolled subtract from successes" mechanic means that characters constantly fail at fairly straightforward tasks even though they have skill levels the game describes as amazing.

Yeah, the modified system used in Trinity/Aberrant/Adventure! and Exalted - which doesn't subtract 1s - works much, much better.

 

[mmu1]

Yeah, the modified system used in Trinity/Aberrant/Adventure! and Exalted - which doesn't subtract 1s - works much, much better.

Huh... Didn't know about that one. Something to run by the DM, I guess. Do botches still work the same?

 

[Staffan]

Huh... Didn't know about that one. Something to run by the DM, I guess. Do botches still work the same?

In Exalted, you botch if you roll zero successes as well as at least one "1" on the dice. I think that's the rule in the newer editions of the WoD games as well - one success and the rest ones means you don't botch.

 

[jester47]

Sicne when do you have to be a vampire to play vampire? I've played a human, a mage, a werewolf.... sure you need another book to plays those... but considering D&D, that shouldn't be a big thing

Well, it just seems to me that the really interesting part of the game if it is used stand alone is being able to play a Vampire. I mean yeah, you can make up other great characters but if you are not using other WoD stuff then your options are somewhat limited mechanicly. If you have a rockin ST then its all good, he can drag you to the sands of Egypt, the tundras of Russia and all sorts of cities in between. I think one of the more interesting aspects of Vampire only reveals itself in international travel. The Vampire politics of whatever city is overdone.

And in writing this I have just realised what soooo annoys me about WoD. Its spread over a bunch of "race" books. That is I think there should be one book called World of Darkness. In it is rules for playing Vampires, Wizards, Werewolves, Changelings, Hunters, Mummies, and all sorts of other Karloff/Legousi monsters.

But WW is all about flavor text. WotC would not be able to get away with a book that was a third flavor text. Not to mention that Mages, Vampires and Werewolves dont balance well. If they presented it as one game I think I would be more inclined to play it, but as it stands I feel like I would be playing Elf: the Aloofness, Dwarf: The Mining, Human: The Powerhungy, Gnome: The Illusion, Halfling: The Verticly Challenged, Half Orc: The Big and Ugly. and Half-Elf: The Confused. They are all published as different games but in the same World of Fantasy...

I think that is why I don't play WoD. Each game seems too centered on one concept as haracters and plot are concerned. In D&D, its centered on what the DM wants to center it on.

 

[jester47]

Of course! The game IS called Vampire, after all!

That would be like picking up D&D and then complaing, "Man! I have to play a fantasy hero! But I wanted to play a computer technician! This game sucks!"

Actually, the way I see it, playing vampire is like having D&D center around Elves. And then there is another game that centers around Dwarves. See the above post. Yeah, you can have normal people in Elf: The Moonpeople, but most things in the game favor elves and the politics and doings of thier society. Yeah, you can have Fighter Elves, or Wizard Elves, just like you can have Ventrue and Makavians. But that is why I feel so limited in WoD games.

This made me realise yet another point. Most non-fantasy RPGs that do not deal with aliens are "race-light." That is you are only a human. These games seem to be able to be completely done in one Core book. But games with many races seem to require more books.

Sorry, I keep hijacking the thread.

Aaron.

 

[Azzemmell]

Game system aside, which I agree has some quirks that don't make sense, what I really liked about vampire was the different levels of plot. I guess mostly it was great reading for the GM. Tons of ideas. "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" exemplifies this, to me. Players have this idea of what is REALLY happening from reading the main book. Then they get a clan book and LO! here are the REAL secrets behind your heritage. But what the PCs dont' know is that WHOAA!.... everything is twisted and no one has the full truth.... no one but the GM, or ST. Plots within plots within plots. Evil grins all around. It, to me, is more of a game that concentrates on good *fluff* rather than good *crunchies*.

Twilight 2000 . Found it, played it, loved it. Still has the best gun system that I've played. IMHO, of course. Quick resolution of hundreds of bullets flying at once.

Azz

 

[WayneLigon]

... think that is why I don't play WoD. Each game seems too centered on one concept as haracters and plot are concerned. In D&D, its centered on what the DM wants to center it on.

That's because almost all the 'races' are mutually antagonistic to each other. Vampires see everything else as food or a tool. Werewolves cannot coexist with vampires and distrust magi to a great degree, mages see vampires and werewolves as material components or power sources respectively. Some limited forms of cooperation between some (vampires and some magi, for instance, or Werewolves and some Dreamspeakers or possibly Verbena) are possible for brief periods of time, but it'll be horribly tense.

I've played Vampire a lot. For several years, I played Werewolf almost every day online (GarouMUSH).

Yeah, the stat system is a bit funny but that's only if you use the stat system. The WoD system has to be the only one where /every/ part of the system is optional, even the combat system; you can always use the diceless narrative 'systems'.

 

[mistergone]

Bah. Yeah, I used to play Vampire a lot, and Werewolf and Mage. A lot of the time, I'd run even, and run them together. Or seperately, but more Mage than anything followed by Werewolf. Yep, a lot for years. Now, after having met the kinds of people who also play those games, I don't play anymore. Well, to be fair, also I don't play anymore because everyoen I knew that also played eventually lost interest or moved away or had a family, etc... Another thing that really got me not interested in these games is all the LARPers who can't seem to seperate the original tabletop versions of these games from live action.

So, to answer the question asked by the thread's author: "Hell no, not anymore."

Now I got a big huge box of second edition World of Darkness books here for sale, cheap.

 

[Darkness]

Then they get a clan book and LO! here are the REAL secrets behind your heritage. But what the PCs dont' know is that WHOAA!.... everything is twisted and no one has the full truth.... no one but the GM, or ST. Plots within plots within plots.

Right, if you take the source books as "teh truth (tm" - which they aren't really intended as...

I still get your point, though, and am inclined to agree.