Vancian Caster Alternative in future sourcebook?

[Ruin Explorer]

It should be no problem to do Vancian magic in 4e. Simply change all the 1/encounter spells into either 4/day, or 4 equivalent spells each 1/day. Problem solved. Of course then you're stuck with 3.x's problems with the 4 encounters per day assumption, but if you've already learned to handle those that shouldn't be a big deal.

Complicating this is the fact that, if they're going the Bo9S route, a lot of "per encounter" abilities can be used more than once per encounter, via refreshes of various kinds.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, somebody might decide that the time is right to do a -real- vancian magic system, rather than the psuedo vancian system of D&D...

(but for all the above reasons I still don't see any chance of it happening)

Maybe something useful culled from here?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dying-Earth-Roleplaying-Game/dp/0953998002

 

[Dragonblade]

Do you all think it is possible that WoTC may release a future 4E sourcebook that shows how to do a Vancian Style caster in 4E? Maybe in 4E's version of Unearthed Arcana?

Ugh. No thanks. I'm happy 4e is moving away from Vancian magic. I don't ever want to go back.

 

[Gloombunny]

Of course, somebody might decide that the time is right to do a -real- vancian magic system, rather than the psuedo vancian system of D&D...

Ironically 4e magic sounds far more like Vance's wizards than anything in previous D&D editions. Spells in the Dying Earth are kind of like the per-day resources - very powerful, but you only get a small handful of them before you have to hit the books again. The per-encounter and at-will resources are vaguely analogous to the various magic items and mundane skills all of Vance's wizards used.

But truly Vancian magic just wouldn't be good in a game anything like D&D. D&D wizards have save-or-die spells, but Vancian wizards have die-no-matter-what spells. And you don't even need to be a "high level" wizard to use them, necessarily.

Maybe something useful culled from here?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dying-Earth-Roleplaying-Game/dp/0953998002

It's been a while since I really looked at my copy, but I doubt it... the Dying Earth RPG is a beautiful work of design and very good at running games inspired by the Cugel stories, but very unlike any conventional RPG.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Complicating this is the fact that, if they're going the Bo9S route, a lot of "per encounter" abilities can be used more than once per encounter, via refreshes of various kinds.

Not really more complicated, I think - the Vancian approach would probably remove the per encounter limit, so you don't have anything special do to if you want your second daily use in the same encounter.

 

[Li Shenron]

Do you all think it is possible that WoTC may release a future 4E sourcebook that shows how to do a Vancian Style caster in 4E? Maybe in 4E's version of Unearthed Arcana?

Vancian spellcasting isn't going away completely. Probably at least one between "per encounter" and "daily" abilities will still use the vancian system, with spell slots that must be prepared beforehand.

The other group of ability (and almost certainly the "at will" abilities too) will probably be usable spontaneously.

So I think you can still say "I'm a vancian caster" even if part of your abilities are not vancian.

I also think it's easier that a supplement would introduce a variant where everything is spontaneous, or where spells use spell points, rather than a variant where everything is vancian.

 

[jasin]

In a system balanced under the assumption that all classes have some "at will" abilities, some "per encounter" abilities, and some "per day" abilities, it would be exceedingly difficult to balance a class that only had "per day" abilities. In fact, I'm not 100% certain it could be done, at least not with any degree of accuracy.

It shouldn't be any more difficult than balancing a rogue or a warlock with a wizard or a sorcerer.

Take that as you will.

 

[DandD]

Seeing as a Rogue or a Warlock isn't on par with a higher level Wizard or Sorceror...

 

[jasin]

Of course, somebody might decide that the time is right to do a -real- vancian magic system, rather than the psuedo vancian system of D&D...

(but for all the above reasons I still don't see any chance of it happening)

Maybe something useful culled from here?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dying-Earth-Roleplaying-Game/dp/0953998002

IYO, what is the the distinction between real Vancian magic and D&D's (pseudo-Vancian) magic?

Also, how does magic work in DERPG?

 

[fuindordm]

IYO, what is the the distinction between real Vancian magic and D&D's (pseudo-Vancian) magic?

Also, how does magic work in DERPG?

In the Dying Earth stories, you had three degree of magic use.

The "Cugel level": an educated person could study magic on their own, possibly learning to memorize one spell at a time and have a chance of casting it correctly. (Whence the 1e thief's ability to read scrolls).

The "Turjan level": a mage had books containing many spells and a wide array of magical items at his disposal. Note that most of the items were so highly specialized as to be practically useless, with a few notable exceptions. All mages were pretty much the same in terms of spellcasting ability: beginners could memorize three spells, masters could memorize as many as five. There were only a hundred or so known spells, so if you wanted to get the jump on a rival you had to do it with magic items.

The "Rhialto level": an archmage can memorize and cast spells as a mage, but seldom bothers. Once you manage to obtain the services of a sadestin (a very powerful spirit who completely ignores the restrictions of space and time), that creature does all the heavy lifting for you--leaving you free to indulge esoteric, impractical research and/or hedonistic pleasures. Again, much of the competition between archmages is over magic items--in particular IOUN stones.

In the Lyonesse series, magicians seemed to fall somewhere between the Turjan level and the Rhialto level. Some magicians had sadestins, but many did not. Those who did not seemed to have much a much wider variety of spells, and found it a little easier to cast them. This may be because most the magicians were (at least partially) inhuman, so some of their magic was actually faerie magic.