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D&D 5E Variant 5e?

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I don't generally run attrition based adventures (I only homebrew); so I don't see that. We have between 0-6 battles in an adventuring day, but typically 2-3. That will not change. What will change for us is how dangerous those 2-3 fights are and the consequences for them. In fact, the hope is they try to avoid fighting when they can. Simply put, things often become much harder for characters and players in my game if they are forced to wait on a recovering comrade for a week.
I think you’re assuming a lot more from the word “attrition” than I am suggesting. But, it’s clear you’re not really interested in my suggestions, and that’s fine. Like I said, I don’t want to beat a dead horse, I was just answering since you asked directly. I do hope your group enjoys the changes you’re thinking of making 😊
 

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dave2008

Legend
If you want to put a restriction on how many HD can be spent in a single short rest, you'd probably want to base it on level. 1/2 or 1/3rd or 1/4 you level in HD or something. So it doesn't trivialize as you level, like Second Wind.

It's a problematic issue, since hit points, are at the bottom of it, and if you interpret hit points in such a way as to /make/ 'quick' healing an issue in the fiction, you've just made gaining hps as you level an even more egregious issue.

Paladin? Bard? Druid? Ranger?
Ranger and Druid (and two fighters, a rogue, and a fighter/wizard multiclass)
 

dave2008

Legend
I think you’re assuming a lot more from the word “attrition” than I am suggesting. But, it’s clear you’re not really interested in my suggestions, and that’s fine. Like I said, I don’t want to beat a dead horse, I was just answering since you asked directly. I do hope your group enjoys the changes you’re thinking of making 😊
I appreciate your responses. It is not that I am not interested. I am just not getting it really. It seems that you think the game can't be "harder" without addressing the attrition model of D&D. That may be generally true, but I don't think it is true for my group. So my ideas may not work for people generally, but I think they will work for my group. However, since I really only know my groups I have a hard time understanding why they don't work for others. It is a coming failure: we assume others play like we do.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Ranger and Druid (and two fighters, a rogue, and a fighter/wizard multiclass)
So, no cleric, but not without healing magic. And, yeah, with half the party (literally, if the fighter/wiz is evenly-advancing) not gaining much from the shortened day, and only one of them a single-class full caster, it'll net out to be harder on them - as intended.
 
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dave2008

Legend
So, no cleric, and not without healing magic. But, yeah, with half the party (literally, if the fighter/wiz is evenly-advancing) not gaining much from the shortened day, and only one of them a single-class full caster, it'll net out to be harder on them - as intended.
The changes need to be tweaked some, but I think I'm getting there. With the ideas in this thread and advanced players thread I've got a lot to work with.
 

Quite a lot of good points are made.

For the attrition. At my table, on a short rest you can take as many HD of healing that you want. The problem is that you recover these only on a long rest and that you can only take HD after any rest. We made (me and the players have agreed) that you can't make a short rest and a long rest right after one another. We further limited the short rests to two per day. With the random encounter rule, it can be very hard to get a full short rest without an encounter (of varying power, never deadly but often challenging). A long rest must be taken in a safe place (Leomund's hut comes to mind but as the players rise up, not even that is a fool proof and totaly safe option; especialy if the enemies are on their tails.

This means that very often, players are low on HD for healing (very often at only half or less). It does give healers a leeway on their spell slots as now they can use them for something other than healing. And yet, as level rises up, the need for healing gets even stronger. Ressource management and pressure from enemies and the environement makes for very challenging and interesting games.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I'm away from my books, but isn't that pretty much RAW?
I think Helldritch might mean “you can only take HD after any rest” as in, spending HD to heal after a rest is the only means of natural healing. No returning to full HP after a long rest.

I’ve played with such a house rule before. It didn’t really have much of an impact on play patterns.
 

I think Helldritch might mean “you can only take HD after any rest” as in, spending HD to heal after a rest is the only means of natural healing. No returning to full HP after a long rest.

I’ve played with such a house rule before. It didn’t really have much of an impact on play patterns.
Exactly. I wrote my post in a hurry as I was having an appointment.

I am a bit surprise that this manner of playing was not having an impact on your play patterns. Sometimes, players are starting the day with HP lower than their maximum as they want to "save" HD for a critical rest. They get quite prudent when they are not starting at full HP. Yes it is a bit of min/maxing but my players (all 12 of them) like that approach.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Exactly. I wrote my post in a hurry as I was having an appointment.

I am a bit surprise that this manner of playing was not having an impact on your play patterns. Sometimes, players are starting the day with HP lower than their maximum as they want to "save" HD for a critical rest. They get quite prudent when they are not starting at full HP. Yes it is a bit of min/maxing but my players (all 12 of them) like that approach.
When I played it, what ended up happening is that we would rely on magical healing over natural healing whenever possible, since our healers got all of their spell slots back on a long rest, while we only got half our hit dice back. As long as we didn’t spend more than half our hit dice between long rests, we’d be back to full HD after one, and if for some reason we needed to go below that threshold, we could spend multiple days recovering. Sure, we’d occasionally have to start a day with 41 HP instead of 49, but in the big picture that didn’t really make much difference. That’s why I say it didn’t really change our play patterns. Some minor shuffling of resource management priorities, and we were easily able to keep playing largely the same way we always did.

This is why I say that simply draining the players’ resources faster, increasing the time it takes to recover them, or both doesn’t really work to increase the difficulty. Sure, players will have to retreat to a safe resting location more often, and they’ll have to spend more time there, which will mean missed opportunities unless the world waits for the players. But ultimately that’s all the same patterns of behavior. In my experience, it doesn’t really change how the players approach challenges, it just leads to them doing largely the same things, and missing more opportunities, cause what else are they gonna do?

If your goal is to get players to play cautiously, to think carefully, and prioritize avoiding combat over direct confrontation, the easiest and most effective way to do that is to limit the players’ ability to recover their resources. This will break up the “kick in the door, go nova, gather the stuff, repeat until you need to rest” pattern of play, because the players will have an immediate need to think about how they’re spending their resources. They’ll start thinking long-term, because they’ll have to if they want to survive.

I’m not saying you have to do 6-8 encounter adventuring days to slowly grind your players down, especially if that isn’t the kind of play they enjoy. But fiddling with HP, damage, and healing values and times is only going to change how likely a given fight is to force the players into rest mode. If you want to see an actual change in gameplay, you need to make your players consider not just this fight, but the next few fights.
 

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