Variant on Firearms

Calico_Jack73

First Post
Okay, is there anyone else that thinks the rules for firearms in D&D (and crossbows to a point) makes them a bit wimpy? There is absolutely NO advantage to using a pistol or blunderbuss though historically speaking these are the weapons that made armor obsolete. What do you think about making firearms a ranged touch attack? That or what do you think about making it do Constitution damage instead of Hit Point damage? A gun of any kind should command healthy respect. Medieval armor just wasn't up to protecting against firearms and I want to reflect that. Spells like Mage Armor should still work since it creates a magic force field and magic armor would still grant an AC bonus equal to it's "Plus". The rules as they stand would make any character pick up a bow rather than use a gunpowder weapon.

Thoughts?
 

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It was possible to make steel plates that could stop pistol bullets (and carbines at medium ranges), it was just the larger guns that could penetrate. Later armor was sold as "pistol-proof" and had a dent in it to show that it had been shot and survived.

Because of this, you might just want to allow weapons to ignore a only a portion of a target's armor bonus. Say pistols 1, carbines 2 and rifles 4. Making it a ranged touch attack is too much.

Guns and armor existed side-by-side for hundreds of years.


Aaron
 

I'm no scholar, but in my opinion it isn't so much that guns made armor obsolete, it's that guns made Chivalry and Feudalism obsolete (or at least helped speed the process).

It is far easier to raise and train a large army of "peasant" gunmen than an army of noblemen knights.

Whether armor worked against bullets or not, nobody is going to go to the expense of armoring a large army of peasant conscripts. Give them a gun and shove them out on the battlefield.

FYI, it's pretty much the same reason that the longbow faded away. The longbow was a superior weapon to both the firearms of the time as well as the crossbow, but it was simply too costly in terms of time-investment. How does the saying go? "To train an archer, start with his grandfather..."

I don't think it was so much a technological leap whereby guns suddenly trumped armor, but the times in general were changing. You have to look at everything that was going on during the rise of gunpower and the fall of feudalism (two key factors being democracy/self-rule and industrialization).

And as someone above pointed out, it didn't happen overnight.


Wulf
 

In extreme range combat I'd absolutely agree that armor would help since the ball's velocity would have dropped off enough that it would be more difficult to penetrate the armor. However, the typical D&D "engagement" distance is usually below less than 50 feet... certainly not enough for any appreciable drop off in muzzel velocity. So, in a typical D&D combat involving the use of firearms I can't see how armor would be much use. I watched a show on the History channel not too long ago that studied the combat techniques of pirates who would typically have multiple pistols and would stick one against the gut of their enemy, fire, drop the pistol and grab a new one. At physical contact range I certainly can't see armor helping.
 

All of some of the above.

Yes, it was possible to create "Proofed" armour, although this was expensive. Equally there was a lot of "False Proof" armour out there -- dented by hammer, instead of by pistol shot. The problem here is that to keep up against the munitions, the armies would all have to be encased in heavy plate, which is impractical; also, not every part of the body could be equally protected -- proofing was fairly easy for breast/backplates and helmets, but less so for limbs, and then there is the problem of armouring up horses...

Guns, like crossbows, are easier to learn how to handle than selfbows. Like crossbows, they have horribly slow reload time -- early 17th century manuals show to load-and-fire by the book took something like 35 steps with a common matchlock and, at best, you would get off 2 rounds a minute -- this explains the whole pike-and-shot era, the strong (and widely admired) pikemen defend the slow (and widely sneered at) musketeers. And, yes, a peasant with a musket could kill a knight -- hardly considered sporting!

There were other problems with early firearms. Besides the slow rate of reload there was the problem of range -- any decent ranged weapon had a better range and accuracy. If you were really, really good, you could claim accuracy with early firelock weapons out to, maybe, 50 yards. This explains why Benjamin Franklin pushed for raising longbowmen during the American Revolution -- range, accuracy, rate of fire, albeit requiring training from a very, very young age if you were to be any good with them. Next there was the flash and bang. Men, horses, everyone was terrified by this, especially horses. One of the largest parts of training was learning not to flinch. Then there was the smoke. Since the only good way to insure hitting a target was to fire en masse and hope for the best, there was a LOT of smoke, so after 2-3 rounds you could barely see your hand in front of your face.

...and let's not even get started on the artillery...

So why do they take over?

As stated, any peasant can pull a trigger. Equally, unlike arrows, it is easy to make shot for a gun -- heat any softish metal and pour into a mold. You do not have to be raised with the weapon, like a longbow, and the single best offensive force of the era, armoured cavalry, becomes all but useless in the face of a volley -- flash, bang, smoke, smell.

Next there is cost. While a musket might be expensive, it was also heavy, which meant that you couldn't cart around a lot of armour, so the overall equipping of an individual went down. And in the face of other muskets armour in general lost its effectiveness to the point where fewer and fewer men bothered with the armour, so overall the costs of armies fell on an individual basis, thus allowing either cheaper armies or (more often) larger armies.

This also means that you tended to field armies who fought for coin, not for "glory" and family name. That means discipline over tantrums, a major problem with late medieval and renaissance armies. The armies were loyal to the commanders, rather than to vague notions of chivalry.

Finally there are the bullets themselves. Consider early shot. Most of it was lead. Lead, when it hits, splatters. This means that it is difficult to get all of the shot out of the body. Lead left behind in a body is not a good thing, tends to lead to infections rather quickly. Thus casualties can pop up more easily and put people hors de combat rather more readily. More people died from infections from their wounds than from the wounds themselves -- surgical techniques of the period are hardly inspiring to a modern reader.

Are D&D rules for firearms "wimpy"? Sure. But then again, nothing in D&D is even slightly realistic and we shouldn't expect it to be -- that's not what D&D is about. D&D is about fantasy and in fantastical novels people survive bullet wounds at a frightening pace themselves, while gunning down their opponents as if they were firing chainguns instead of single shot pistols.
 

Great post Wombat!

This all came up because I'd like to do a good cinematic style Pirate campaign. None of the movies have the heros needing any more than a single shot to take out the bad guys. Combats go back in forth in rounds until someone's hit points are whittled away. Sure there are other game systems with more fluid combat systems which could more easily reflect the style I am looking for but no other game is as widely supported as D&D. I wouldn't want to have to convert monsters and NPCs from D&D to another system so I am trying to come up with something within the D20 system that would still work.
 

Calico_Jack73 said:
I wouldn't want to have to convert monsters and NPCs from D&D to another system so I am trying to come up with something within the D20 system that would still work.

A quick and easy solution, then, would be to require a Death From Massive Damage save against ANY firearms wound.

A DC of 15 + damage dealt should be sufficiently deadly for the PCs to have to worry about it, and the rank and file NPCs to drop like flies.


Wulf
 

Thanks Wulf! I think I'll run with that! As has been discussed in modern RPG's (most notably Cyberpunk 2020) the effect of shock from a gunshot wound is what most often takes someone out of combat which is why even at relatively low levels of damage a PC has to make stun and then death saves in Cyberpunk. I haven't researched it myself but in Cyberpunk they state that in the real world people have died from the shock of being shot in the leg or foot.
 

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