Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue

[FrogReaver]

Even that seems a waste of time. Just dual wield double your chance to sneak attack. Fighter level splash and get Dex to damage off hand as well.

Dual Wield Doesn't double your chance to sneak attack. It gives you 2 independent chances which quite often can result in maybe a 30% or so additional chance of sneak attack.

Consider Greenflame blade at level 11 = 1d6+5+2d8+6d6 = 38.5*.7= 26.95
VS dual wield rogue at level 11 = 1d6+5+1d6+1.3*(6d6) = 39.3*.7 = 27.51

Level 11 against low AC opponents Greenflame is better. Against High Ac opponents it's worse. The effect it provides is a nice addition.

By level 17 it's better but not by much. It's not worth taking magic initiate for unless you want to try Booming Blade hit and run tactics which IMO won't be very effective but might be very fun.

 

[Zardnaar]

Dual Wield Doesn't double your chance to sneak attack. It gives you 2 independent chances which quite often can result in maybe a 30% or so additional chance of sneak attack.

Consider Greenflame blade at level 11 = 1d6+5+2d8+6d6 = 38.5*.7= 26.95
VS dual wield rogue at level 11 = 1d6+5+1d6+1.3*(6d6) = 39.3*.7 = 27.51

Level 11 against low AC opponents Greenflame is better. Against High Ac opponents it's worse. The effect it provides is a nice addition.

By level 17 it's better but not by much. It's not worth taking magic initiate for unless you want to try Booming Blade hit and run tactics which IMO won't be very effective but might be very fun.

I rate level 1-10 way higher than 11-20.
Even if you make it to 11 odds are you won't get much higher so I would rather be better level 1-10 than 11-15.

Casting cantrips IMHO is really only good as a mastermind IMHO as that subclass has a great bonus action ability.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

EK is fine if you consider him as the defensive and out of combat option instead of an offensive powerhouse. But there's just not very good evocation and abjuration low level spells and so you have to get your good spells elsewhere. That's the EK's biggest hindrance. Champion gets no good abilities till way later. Arcane Trickster is basically the rogue version of the EK, consider it the defensive and out of combat option. However, at least it's schools of magic offer a lot of good spell options.

Honestly, the AT is very solid. Booming Blade depends a bit more on a DM that isn’t inclined to screw players out of their cool tactic, and other PCs that will allow you to go after a critter without sticking to it and making sure you never get secondary damage or deny it attacks, but assuming those variables are in hand, a BB rogue KILLS.

Add in the variety of mobility, Defense, and utlility, and handful of damage spells, and it’s good stuff.

Also, Find Familiar is an offensive spell. Get an owl, rarely ever attack without advantage.

Once you’ve got 2nd level Spells, rely on class feature for defense, and hit up that shadow blade. 2d6+BB+SA+dex is good.

Yea, I think they stop assassain a little short of where it could have been. That said I love assassain on ranged rogues. There's nothing like opening combat up with guaranteed advantage and sneak attack damage.

I think the other thing you could do with a rogue is give them maneuvers that disable enemies and make the combat rogue focus be less damage and more single target debuff / control. *Underhanded Maneuvers* - When you successfully sneak attack you can perform one of the following maneuvers etc.

I’ve wanted a hamstringer rogue since early 4e, if not sooner. I may work on that, actually.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Casting cantrips IMHO is really only good as a mastermind IMHO as that subclass has a great bonus action ability.

IMO you’re overvaluing dual wielding as a rogue. I do more damage when I get my Booming Blade tactic off than when I hit with both attacks while doing regular attacks with my rapier and hand crossbow, and I’d do even less damage if I were dual wielding shortswords, since I get to add my dex with the bonus attack with the hand bow.

Also, if you’re playing an assassin in a game where the dm and other players are willing to let you assassinate, BB is flat better than dual wielding past level 5. Sneak, hit, crit bc it’s a hit, deal 4d8+6d6 damage. Only way to match that is to MC fighter, which shouldn’t be a standard assumption, given that most players don’t MC. And for most rogues, I’d rather MC Hexblade, Bladesinger, or Paladin.

 

[Zardnaar]

IMO you’re overvaluing dual wielding as a rogue. I do more damage when I get my Booming Blade tactic off than when I hit with both attacks while doing regular attacks with my rapier and hand crossbow, and I’d do even less damage if I were dual wielding shortswords, since I get to add my dex with the bonus attack with the hand bow.

Also, if you’re playing an assassin in a game where the dm and other players are willing to let you assassinate, BB is flat better than dual wielding past level 5. Sneak, hit, crit bc it’s a hit, deal 4d8+6d6 damage. Only way to match that is to MC fighter, which shouldn’t be a standard assumption, given that most players don’t MC. And for most rogues, I’d rather MC Hexblade, Bladesinger, or Paladin.

Are you using crossbow expert? It's similar to fighter mc to get Dex to damage with a bonus attack.

Note I like CBE for rogues and if you're going ranged do that instead of using a shortbow. I also did say CBE was great for assassins. Some feats are worth more for subclasses unless you get cantrip via a racial ability.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Are you using crossbow expert? It's similar to fighter mc to get Dex to damage with a bonus attack.

Note I like CBE for rogues and if you're going ranged do that instead of using a shortbow. I also did say CBE was great for assassins. Some feats are worth more for subclasses unless you get cantrip via a racial ability.

Yep, he’s a swahsbuckler5/bladesinger2, with Skilled and CBE, a Familiar, Booming Blade, and a rapier that can cast Absorb Elements 3/day. With Studded Leather armor, he has a 17 AC when Blade Song is up, which will go up by 1 when he hits his next feat. House rules gives him a level 1 feat, and +1 to a single stat when he chooses a feat over an ASI.

He’d be better off with sentinel or a dex boosting feat in the level 1 slot instead of skilled, and his stat spread isn’t optimized (12 wis and cha, instead of higher dex and int, or con), but he wreaks havoc all the same.

He switches between stab+shoot, and Booming Blade, depending on what is more advantageous, and whether he can reach an enemy. When things are too far away for the xbow, he has leveled spells to fall back on. When he can isolate someone so that if they don’t move after him they can’t act, he does so and uses Booming Blade. If he can’t, he uses the xbow.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yep, he’s a swahsbuckler5/bladesinger2, with Skilled and CBE, a Familiar, Booming Blade, and a rapier that can cast Absorb Elements 3/day. With Studded Leather armor, he has a 17 AC when Blade Song is up, which will go up by 1 when he hits his next feat. House rules gives him a level 1 feat, and +1 to a single stat when he chooses a feat over an ASI.

He’d be better off with sentinel or a dex boosting feat in the level 1 slot instead of skilled, and his stat spread isn’t optimized (12 wis and cha, instead of higher dex and int, or con), but he wreaks havoc all the same.

He switches between stab+shoot, and Booming Blade, depending on what is more advantageous, and whether he can reach an enemy. When things are too far away for the xbow, he has leveled spells to fall back on. When he can isolate someone so that if they don’t move after him they can’t act, he does so and uses Booming Blade. If he can’t, he uses the xbow.

Clever use of the bladesinger, my wifes use of it was pure BS but dual wielding and using flaming sphere and parking it on the other side of the opponent.

Though you would use mage armor over studded leather for +1 AC and blade dancing (or can you do that in lt armor I can't recall). Nice blade for 7th level early in 5E I gave out a polearm that could heal. Oops.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Clever use of the bladesinger, my wifes use of it was pure BS but dual wielding and using flaming sphere and parking it on the other side of the opponent.

Though you would use mage armor over studded leather for +1 AC and blade dancing (or can you do that in lt armor I can't recall). Nice blade for 7th level early in 5E I gave out a polearm that could heal. Oops.

When his int goes up to 16, I may ditch the armor and go that way. Technically you can’t be wearing armor for it to work.

But yeah, Bladesinger is really fun dip.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

IMO you’re overvaluing dual wielding as a rogue. I do more damage when I get my Booming Blade tactic off than when I hit with both attacks while doing regular attacks with my rapier and hand crossbow,

How does your damage compare when your first attack misses?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

How does your damage compare when your first attack misses?

Well, if I don’t have advantage (rare with flanking, bonus action stealth, and a familiar), I just use a stab and shoot, so I miss on the BB attacks infrequently. The better comparison would be to compare about ten BB rounds vs ten stab+shoot rounds.

I haven’t done that math since I was planning the character, but IIRC, it favors BB unless I were to infrequently have advantage, at least after level 5.

Eventually I’ll also be able to use BB with a opportunity attacks, and I may grab sentinel to OA enemies that attack someone next to me. The only bummer is that Mage Slayer doesn't grant an opportunity Attack, just an attack as a reaction, when an adjacent enemy casts a spell.