D&D General Variation on Themes(by MwaO)

[Garthanos]

Yup, because they're not particularly mechanically strong compared to other themes even if they themselves are better than nothing.

Templar's power swaps are solid, but they're not extraordinary - they don't really scale. And Templar gives nothing past the decent encounter option if you don't take them. Not even an implement option for use with the implement powers. All the modern ones give some sort of 1st/5th/10th option for free on top of the encounter power.

Wild Hunt doesn't even give an encounter attack power for free, its 1st/5th level options are corner-case. The 10th level option is okay, but not great. And the power swaps are mostly bad.

Oh I do not doubt you. I have found in other arenas of character design I find I rarely ever pick anything that is purple, but themes seem to be me looking for something else.

AND

i do wonder about what explicitly can be improved on the red ones of any stripe though...
that is usually what goes through my mind when I read the charop analysis of anything.

 

[MwaO]

i do wonder about what explicitly can be improved on the red ones of any stripe though...
that is usually what goes through my mind when I read the charop analysis of anything.

The red ones are mostly red because they don't even hand out a free encounter attack power, but rather give some benefit of really dubious value. Wild Hunt Rider almost landed itself there, but the benefits are only mostly dubious.

I'd also point out Purple, in CharOp terms, doesn't necessarily mean strictly worse than Black. It means it likely is worse than Black, but there may be some corner-case build where it isn't. And in some instances, maybe even really strong. So Templar falls there in part because most builds won't find it that useful, but some will like it a lot - say an Artificer or Sorcerer not enthralled with the typical choices and a Paladin might really love it if they exist in a world where Templars do too.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The red ones are mostly red because they don't even hand out a free encounter attack power, but rather give some benefit of really dubious value. Wild Hunt Rider almost landed itself there, but the benefits are only mostly dubious.

I'd also point out Purple, in CharOp terms, doesn't necessarily mean strictly worse than Black. It means it likely is worse than Black, but there may be some corner-case build where it isn't. And in some instances, maybe even really strong. So Templar falls there in part because most builds won't find it that useful, but some will like it a lot - say an Artificer or Sorcerer not enthralled with the typical choices and a Paladin might really love it if they exist in a world where Templars do too.

Right, there's lots of Purple stuff that is perfectly usable. You need to be the right build, or maybe in some cases they are just slightly less good than a lot of good choices, but if you already have OTHER choices that cover those bases, then a purple element may make sense just to have a different option. Often the mix of options is as important as the strength of one specific one. Even if you could just pick all blue and sky blue stuff you might find that you'd be better off trading one of those for something 'inferior' just so you can be more adaptable, etc. Usually the red options are red because they're just pathetic and pretty much hopeless, but even those aren't always so bad in every case. Often they are things you CAN use, and might even pick up with the idea of retraining them soon or swapping them out, but they will do for now.

 

[Randomthoughts]

Wanted to say thanks for this guide. I've been using it to help with some builds for a few PCs. Organizing it by Role is a great help!

Anyway, I'm wondering about Alchemist. The character concept for the Wizard in my campaign lent itself to this. I see it's pretty low, but I'd classify as more "GM dependent." The options for alchemical items seem numerous (though dependent on the GM). I'd think it would rate at least a black. Thoughts?


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[MwaO]

Anyway, I'm wondering about Alchemist. The character concept for the Wizard in my campaign lent itself to this. I see it's pretty low, but I'd classify as more "GM dependent." The options for alchemical items seem numerous (though dependent on the GM). I'd think it would rate at least a black. Thoughts?

Alchemical items have a lot of problems because they don't scale properly and in multiple ways. And if you don't take an attack item, then you don't have a free attack granted to you by your theme.

Here are the basic problems, even for the solid options:
Unless the item is in hand, it is a minor action to draw it out. Obvious ways around this that are good even and in themselves.

The attack bonus is at best level+5 once you get the +2 to hit. Except level+5 isn't your level. It is the level of the item+5. Which can be up to 4 lower than yours.

Damage almost never scales properly. Adding +1d6/5 levels is basically meaningless - either you kill the minions with the item or you don't.

Items that are good independent of level are eventually of negligible cost. Sweet Water is 20 gp. When you get 500 gp per encounter, who cares? Suppression Crystals that cost 40 gp when you make 5000 gold per encounter? Oil of Etherealness is an exception to this, but waiting until 20th level?

Giggle Dust & Pacification Dust are both strong for what they are, but one's Dungeon Magazine and the other is a Rare. And eventually, a Wizard's encounter options are likely stronger than either of them. Simply because of what Enlarge Spell feat means...

 

[Garthanos]

Alchemical items have a lot of problems because they don't scale properly and in multiple ways. And if you don't take an attack item, then you don't have a free attack granted to you by your theme.

Here are the basic problems, even for the solid options:
Unless the item is in hand, it is a minor action to draw it out. Obvious ways around this that are good even and in themselves.

The attack bonus is at best level+5 once you get the +2 to hit. Except level+5 isn't your level. It is the level of the item+5. Which can be up to 4 lower than yours.

Damage almost never scales properly. Adding +1d6/5 levels is basically meaningless - either you kill the minions with the item or you don't.

Items that are good independent of level are eventually of negligible cost. Sweet Water is 20 gp. When you get 500 gp per encounter, who cares? Suppression Crystals that cost 40 gp when you make 5000 gold per encounter? Oil of Etherealness is an exception to this, but waiting until 20th level?

Giggle Dust & Pacification Dust are both strong for what they are, but one's Dungeon Magazine and the other is a Rare. And eventually, a Wizard's encounter options are likely stronger than either of them. Simply because of what Enlarge Spell feat means...

Probably could use your brain on some of the Grandmaster Trainings and Martial Practice Ideas... LOL

 

[MwaO]

Probably could use your brain on some of the Grandmaster Trainings and Martial Practice Ideas... LOL

I'm not a fan of Grandmaster Trainings or Ritual-type additions to 4e. You're talking to someone who never actually used a boon. And the only rituals I used were free for my Bard anyway.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm not a fan of Grandmaster Trainings or Ritual-type additions to 4e.

the Gmts and Boons or Blessings and Long Term Enchantments all ought to operate on the same parameters as items and item analysis skills I think ought to apply well.

But yeh rituals and analogs are a different kettle of fish. I do want to make them more appealing though, so from that perspective anyone can chip in I guess.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Alchemical items have a lot of problems because they don't scale properly and in multiple ways. And if you don't take an attack item, then you don't have a free attack granted to you by your theme.

Here are the basic problems, even for the solid options:
Unless the item is in hand, it is a minor action to draw it out. Obvious ways around this that are good even and in themselves.

The attack bonus is at best level+5 once you get the +2 to hit. Except level+5 isn't your level. It is the level of the item+5. Which can be up to 4 lower than yours.

Damage almost never scales properly. Adding +1d6/5 levels is basically meaningless - either you kill the minions with the item or you don't.

Items that are good independent of level are eventually of negligible cost. Sweet Water is 20 gp. When you get 500 gp per encounter, who cares? Suppression Crystals that cost 40 gp when you make 5000 gold per encounter? Oil of Etherealness is an exception to this, but waiting until 20th level?

Giggle Dust & Pacification Dust are both strong for what they are, but one's Dungeon Magazine and the other is a Rare. And eventually, a Wizard's encounter options are likely stronger than either of them. Simply because of what Enlarge Spell feat means...

Yeah, Alchemical item attacks should get an attack bonus from the character, and inherent bonus (just like ALL non-weapon non-implement attacks should of course, AND should benefit from expertise, etc). This presents a small problem of lower level items being very cheap but still hitting on your attack bonus, but if the damage scaled properly this would be a marginal issue (yeah, maybe you'd use the cheap low level items for minion sweepers, but at-wills already do that well enough, and the hassle of carrying around and getting out your ammo constantly probably offsets any real advantage).

There are definitely items that are GOOD, but again scaling should happen. Sure, Sweet Water is 20gp, but what if it only dealt with effects of its own level or less? Then you'd want the expensive higher level versions... Same with the blast packs, smoke sticks, etc.

Also I think they should have cleaned up poisons and cleanly integrated them into the alchemy system, which would have given it a more interesting dimension (though it might step on the Essassin I wasn't that impressed with it anyway).

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah, Alchemical item attacks should get an attack bonus from the character, and inherent bonus (just like ALL non-weapon non-implement attacks should of course, AND should benefit from expertise, etc). This presents a small problem of lower level items being very cheap but still hitting on your attack bonus, but if the damage scaled properly this would be a marginal issue (yeah, maybe you'd use the cheap low level items for minion sweepers, but at-wills already do that well enough, and the hassle of carrying around and getting out your ammo constantly probably offsets any real advantage).

There are definitely items that are GOOD, but again scaling should happen. Sure, Sweet Water is 20gp, but what if it only dealt with effects of its own level or less? Then you'd want the expensive higher level versions... Same with the blast packs, smoke sticks, etc.

Also I think they should have cleaned up poisons and cleanly integrated them into the alchemy system, which would have given it a more interesting dimension (though it might step on the Essassin I wasn't that impressed with it anyway).

Sounds like a valid project...

I was thinking my Clockwork Genius would add fragile but renaissance style techie items extending the Alchemical box, but I think keeping it distinct might be fun for emphasis.

Magic has alchemy as almost a branch off ... Martial has primitive tech as branch off, or maybe not. LOL