Vecna v Acererak v Larloch? Who's The Most Powerful Lich?

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

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"Heh. I've been asked this many times before, and although part of me wonders what's the point of all "who's more powerful?" questions, the answer is: it depends. In terms of raw personal BATTLE power, the answer is likely Vecna. Though so much of his power is vested in his Hand and his Eye that unless they can all be in one place, Larloch might pack more punch. Not that he would fight toe-to-toe in battle, because that isn't Larloch's way; he views liches who do that as idiot failures. Larloch's way is to manipulate from behind the scenes to lead anyone seeking him, or trying to cross him, astray, so they never come into contact with him. If need be, he'd hurl his many, many servitor liches at them, most of whom are personally more powerful than Acererak.

Larloch and Vecna both have a wider reach and influence on the worlds around them than Acererak, so if you're measuring that way, Acererak is left behind. But when it comes to measuring Larloch and Vecna against each other in terms of influence, it's a matter of style: Vecna has the greater fear-reputation and is "noisier," and Larloch is more the master manipulator, who works unseen. As in, you may never know how much he's affected you. I can only go by what Elminster (and on rare occasions Storm, or Laeral, or Volo[!]) tell me of the Realms, and the three Chosen of Mystra all think Larloch (even wherever he is now, bested by the Srinshee) is the greater threat. As El put it, "Vecna is a bogeyman, and his relics do harm. Larloch undresses thee and ye never even know it." Larloch plays the longer game, and is more patient and empathic and has a greater understanding of the multiverse, whereas Vecna is more self-centered. I trust El's judgment, because I must; without it, none of us know ANYTHING about the Realms.

Acererak is feared throughout the multiverse because he's an almost-always-active destructive force. However, that's a one-trick pony. "Hah! I shall destroy you TWICE!!!" ;}"
 

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Hussar

Legend
I'd point out that if Larlock is, in fact, a Mary Sue character, then that, by definition, makes him the most powerful. That's what being a Mary Sue is - a character that is better than all other characters (and typically a stand in for the author). So, by arguing that Larlock is a Mary Sue, all you are doing is proving that Larlock is the most powerful, by definition.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
I'd point out that if Larlock is, in fact, a Mary Sue character, then that, by definition, makes him the most powerful. That's what being a Mary Sue is - a character that is better than all other characters (and typically a stand in for the author). So, by arguing that Larlock is a Mary Sue, all you are doing is proving that Larlock is the most powerful, by definition.

That's more Elminster maybe Drizzt. Both boring now IMHO.
 

Iry

Hero
You're seriously arguing that Mary Sue characters are God? Because anything less than that is imperfect. Me, I get that a Mary Sue character is not perfect and means something completely different than an all powerful, all knowing, perfect being.
Well... being all powerful, all knowing, and perfect technically makes you a Mary Sue.
Unless you use your omnipotence to be perfect AND have major flaws.
But shattering logic has always been a hallmark of true omnipotence. B-)
 

Dausuul

Legend
Sweet Demogorgon, save me from another argument over the precise definition of what constitutes a Mary Sue.

How about a citation from the 5E Dungeon Master's Guide, instead?

Dungeon Master's Guide said:
Orcus, the demon prince of undeath, taught Vecna a ritual that would allow him to live on as a lich. Beyond death, he became the greatest of all liches.
Thus, by RAW, Vecna is the most powerful lich. Anything else is your own personal house rule. Or Ed Greenwood's, as the case may be. :)
 

Mirtek

Hero
Um, he DOES have a point - Vecna lost to mere mortals. Vecna was a god at the time. So you can't say definitively that it's impossible for Larloch to beat Vecna... and I say that as a Vecna partisan.
Actually only Vecnas' avatar lost which caused just enough distraction that he also lost the true divine battle he was fighting in parallel with the LoP
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
This is bass ackwards. The very fact that Vecna could make it into Sigil, a place where even greater gods cannot get into, made him more powerful than the vast majority of greater gods. Further, Sigil rejects gods of even greater god status, so Vecna was contending with that at the same time as those heroes came upon him.

I vote for Vecna, but the above does not necessarily mean he is/was more powerful.

Smarter, cleverer, or in possession of a cosmic secret (god of secrets right?) perhaps.
 

BBShockwave

First Post
The answer to this should be simple. Last I checked, after the events of "Die Venca, Die!" Vecna became a lesser god of secrets. Acererak is either a lich or demilich (depends on edition) but that's nowhere near deity levels of powerful. I am gonna admit though, never heard of Larloch.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
The answer to this should be simple. Last I checked, after the events of "Die Venca, Die!" Vecna became a lesser god of secrets. Acererak is either a lich or demilich (depends on edition) but that's nowhere near deity levels of powerful. I am gonna admit though, never heard of Larloch.

If Larloch can cast his Netherise spell in modern Faerun he could kill Vecna. Except Vecna isn't on Faerun and Karsus Avatar is a level 12 spell. In 2E the modern weave couldn't support magic of that level anymore, in 3E it could, 4E probably not, 5E who knows. Larloch might also not be powerful enough to cast it but if he can Vecna can be killed. Ioulaum might be the only being on Faerun who can cast it and he is theoretically still around unless someone or something killed him. Netherise had level 10 and 11 spells and one level 12.

I would still put Vecna over Larloch but it's plausible Larloch could kill him, and vice versa.
 
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Orius

Legend
I'm definitely in the Vecna camp here. Godhood. What else needs to be said? While his origins are Greyhawk, how many other worlds has he touched?

Don't count out Acererak, his ritual from Return to the Tomb of Horrors involved merging his consciousness with the Negative Energy Plane itself so he could control any undead anywhere in the multiverse whenever he wanted. Any undead here to me means just that -- even guys like Strahd von Zarovich, Lord Soth, Azalin, and yes, Larloch get to be Acererak's puppet if he succeeds. When the PCs finally confront him, he just needs to absorb three more souls to achieve this, which he might very well get from the party.

Larloch? He might be powerful in the Realms but what does he really do on the rest of the multiverse as a whole? Sorry, but he comes in third.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If Larloch can cast his Netherise spell in modern Faerun he could kill Vecna. Except Vecna isn't on Faerun and Karsus Avatar is a level 12 spell. In 2E the modern weave couldn't support magic of that level anymore, in 3E it could, 4E probably not, 5E who knows. Larloch might also not be powerful enough to cast it but if he can Vecna can be killed. Ioulaum might be the only being on Faerun who can cast it and he is theoretically still around unless someone or something killed him. Netherise had level 10 and 11 spells and one level 12.

I would still put Vecna over Larloch but it's plausible Larloch could kill him, and vice versa.

The spell of Karsus didn't kill Mystral. We don't actually know if his spell would work. What it did when he targeted Mystral was disrupt the weave and she sacrificed herself to save it. Had he cast it on a different god, it might or might not have ultimately been successful. In fact, given that Mystral would have immediately known what he was doing as it was in her province as the goddess of magic, she could have blocked his access to the weave to prevent him from succeeding. His only chance of success was if he targeted a god other than Mystral, she allowed it to succeed, and the target failed the save if it even had to make one.

Even if Larloch knows the spell, and I don't see how as Karsus didn't likely teach it to him.(Oh, right. Mary Sue.) And even if he can somehow exceed the weaves power, which not even Mystra and the other gods can do(Doh! Mary Sue again). Casting the spell stands a very good chance of doing nothing(Unless Mary Sue).
 

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