Vecna v Acererak v Larloch? Who's The Most Powerful Lich?

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

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"Heh. I've been asked this many times before, and although part of me wonders what's the point of all "who's more powerful?" questions, the answer is: it depends. In terms of raw personal BATTLE power, the answer is likely Vecna. Though so much of his power is vested in his Hand and his Eye that unless they can all be in one place, Larloch might pack more punch. Not that he would fight toe-to-toe in battle, because that isn't Larloch's way; he views liches who do that as idiot failures. Larloch's way is to manipulate from behind the scenes to lead anyone seeking him, or trying to cross him, astray, so they never come into contact with him. If need be, he'd hurl his many, many servitor liches at them, most of whom are personally more powerful than Acererak.

Larloch and Vecna both have a wider reach and influence on the worlds around them than Acererak, so if you're measuring that way, Acererak is left behind. But when it comes to measuring Larloch and Vecna against each other in terms of influence, it's a matter of style: Vecna has the greater fear-reputation and is "noisier," and Larloch is more the master manipulator, who works unseen. As in, you may never know how much he's affected you. I can only go by what Elminster (and on rare occasions Storm, or Laeral, or Volo[!]) tell me of the Realms, and the three Chosen of Mystra all think Larloch (even wherever he is now, bested by the Srinshee) is the greater threat. As El put it, "Vecna is a bogeyman, and his relics do harm. Larloch undresses thee and ye never even know it." Larloch plays the longer game, and is more patient and empathic and has a greater understanding of the multiverse, whereas Vecna is more self-centered. I trust El's judgment, because I must; without it, none of us know ANYTHING about the Realms.

Acererak is feared throughout the multiverse because he's an almost-always-active destructive force. However, that's a one-trick pony. "Hah! I shall destroy you TWICE!!!" ;}"
 

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Iry

Hero
Larloch might not be high enough level to cast it though and it was a previous poster that said Larloch knew all the Netherise spells.
Larloch was one of the people who made a deal with Mystra to retain his ability to cast Netherise spells, in return for "accidentally" letting arcane lore slip out to persistent mages, and restocking ancient ruins for adventurers to discover. This is really a thing that several people in FR do, including Elminster (not sure if he still does it since he lost power).

As a point of pure speculation, I always assumed letting Rhaugilath write history books and send them to Candlekeep, and sometimes letting him send dreams and nightmares is part of that deal.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Larloch was one of the people who made a deal with Mystra to retain his ability to cast Netherise spells, in return for "accidentally" letting arcane lore slip out to persistent mages, and restocking ancient ruins for adventurers to discover. This is really a thing that several people in FR do, including Elminster (not sure if he still does it since he lost power).

As a point of pure speculation, I always assumed letting Rhaugilath write history books and send them to Candlekeep, and sometimes letting him send dreams and nightmares is part of that deal.

He can cast level 10 Netherise spells, but his 2E stats and 3E stats have him come up short for level 11 and 12 spells. They all got folded up into epic spells in 3E as the weave could support such spells again.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Larloch was one of the people who made a deal with Mystra to retain his ability to cast Netherise spells, in return for "accidentally" letting arcane lore slip out to persistent mages, and restocking ancient ruins for adventurers to discover. This is really a thing that several people in FR do, including Elminster (not sure if he still does it since he lost power).

That's incredibly silly (at best).
 

Iry

Hero
He can cast level 10 Netherise spells, but his 2E stats and 3E stats have him come up short for level 11 and 12 spells. They all got folded up into epic spells in 3E as the weave could support such spells again.
We know from Ed that Larloch can cast Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere. Since 10th level spells were not restricted in 2nd Edition (N:EoM 116), and Proctiv's Breach is an 11th level spell, it's reasonable to conclude that his deal with Mystra was for 11th level spells. As for 12th level spells, there are no canon or Ed-canon sources of him casting any so he probably cannot even if he has knowledge of them.

That's incredibly silly (at best).
Yes.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
We know from Ed that Larloch can cast Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere. Since 10th level spells were not restricted in 2nd Edition (N:EoM 116), and Proctiv's Breach is an 11th level spell, it's reasonable to conclude that his deal with Mystra was for 11th level spells. As for 12th level spells, there are no canon or Ed-canon sources of him casting any so he probably cannot even if he has knowledge of them.

I disagree. It's reasonable to conclude that it got morphed into an epic spell. We know from the rule books that Mystra specifically altered the weave so that no spell higher than 9th level can be cast. This holds true even for her, the goddess of magic. If she can't do it, neither can he. She wouldn't limit herself and let him exceed the limits.
 

That's incredibly silly (at best).

That does seem odd, unless they have a specific reason. I mean, there are several other established situations like that in D&D, but they have purposes.

Acererak builds death-trap tombs as a way to accumulate souls from foolhardy adventurers, for example.

IIRC it's at least strongly implied that Mystaran Immortals set up situations for adventurers - at least very-high-level ones questing for Immortality - but they need to do that, since the only way they can get new Immortals is by promoting great mortal heroes to Immortality.
 

Iry

Hero
I disagree. It's reasonable to conclude that it got morphed into an epic spell. We know from the rule books that Mystra specifically altered the weave so that no spell higher than 9th level can be cast. This holds true even for her, the goddess of magic. If she can't do it, neither can he. She wouldn't limit herself and let him exceed the limits.
All three liches are active in 5th Edition, so it's genuinely hard to say what they can do when it comes to spell levels above 9th. All three predate 3rd Edition, so we can reasonably determine what spells they know based on that - but actually casting things above 9th becomes a big confused shrug. Even for Vecna.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
All three liches are active in 5th Edition, so it's genuinely hard to say what they can do when it comes to spell levels above 9th. All three predate 3rd Edition, so we can reasonably determine what spells they know based on that - but actually casting things above 9th becomes a big confused shrug. Even for Vecna.

Well, it's confused for Vecna and Acererak. Both of them are Greyhawk liches and there's no weave there, so we don't know what limits spells to 9th level and if it's possible to exceed that limitation or not. All we have to go by are the rule sets, all of which limit spells to 9th level. No rule set or supplement other than Forgotten Realms that I've ever heard of showed any wizard being able cast spells above 9th level, so I'd rule that it's a big no.

Larloch is different, though. We KNOW that that the Forgotten Realms setting allowed spells above 9th level up until Karsus cast his spell and Mystral sacrificed her self. Her reincarnation Mystra altered the weave to allow a maximum of 9th levels spells to be cast, so Larloch is limited to that level of spell, regardless of what spells he knows. The epic rules for 3e(which don't exist in 5e) get around that limitation by having no level, so either the old spells of above 9th level are converted to being epic spells, or he cannot cast them. If he could cast them in 3e, they were epic.

Now, suppose they did not get converted to being epic spells. What happens if Larloch goes to another plane where there is no weave. Wizards can still cast spells, so we are now confused again as to whether or not he can cast spells above 9th level. Since no high level/epic planar wizards could cast spells above 9th level spells in any rule set or supplement that I've ever seen or heard of, I'd rule that he could not cast them and that spells above 9th level were a Forgotten Realms specific feature.
 

gyor

Legend
Well, it's confused for Vecna and Acererak. Both of them are Greyhawk liches and there's no weave there, so we don't know what limits spells to 9th level and if it's possible to exceed that limitation or not. All we have to go by are the rule sets, all of which limit spells to 9th level. No rule set or supplement other than Forgotten Realms that I've ever heard of showed any wizard being able cast spells above 9th level, so I'd rule that it's a big no.

Larloch is different, though. We KNOW that that the Forgotten Realms setting allowed spells above 9th level up until Karsus cast his spell and Mystral sacrificed her self. Her reincarnation Mystra altered the weave to allow a maximum of 9th levels spells to be cast, so Larloch is limited to that level of spell, regardless of what spells he knows. The epic rules for 3e(which don't exist in 5e) get around that limitation by having no level, so either the old spells of above 9th level are converted to being epic spells, or he cannot cast them. If he could cast them in 3e, they were epic.

Now, suppose they did not get converted to being epic spells. What happens if Larloch goes to another plane where there is no weave. Wizards can still cast spells, so we are now confused again as to whether or not he can cast spells above 9th level. Since no high level/epic planar wizards could cast spells above 9th level spells in any rule set or supplement that I've ever seen or heard of, I'd rule that he could not cast them and that spells above 9th level were a Forgotten Realms specific feature.

I'll point out in 4e there were spells far above merely 9Th level.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'll point out in 4e there were spells far above merely 9Th level.

4e didn't have spells in the same structure. If you look closely, you'll see that there were no spells over "9th" level in the power structure. They just got stretched over 30 levels and called 15th or 20th or whatever level. For instance, you didn't find Prismatic Spray at 7th level, you found it at 25th. Forcecage wasn't 7th level, it was 27th. If 4e spell levels were really above "9th," you'd have gotten Meteor Swarm at 9th level, which is when 9th level spells happened, or MAYBE at 18th level, which is when you'd have gotten it in other editions.

So no, 4e did not have spells over 9th(as the other editions had them) level in power.
 

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