Vecna v Acererak v Larloch? Who's The Most Powerful Lich?

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

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"Heh. I've been asked this many times before, and although part of me wonders what's the point of all "who's more powerful?" questions, the answer is: it depends. In terms of raw personal BATTLE power, the answer is likely Vecna. Though so much of his power is vested in his Hand and his Eye that unless they can all be in one place, Larloch might pack more punch. Not that he would fight toe-to-toe in battle, because that isn't Larloch's way; he views liches who do that as idiot failures. Larloch's way is to manipulate from behind the scenes to lead anyone seeking him, or trying to cross him, astray, so they never come into contact with him. If need be, he'd hurl his many, many servitor liches at them, most of whom are personally more powerful than Acererak.

Larloch and Vecna both have a wider reach and influence on the worlds around them than Acererak, so if you're measuring that way, Acererak is left behind. But when it comes to measuring Larloch and Vecna against each other in terms of influence, it's a matter of style: Vecna has the greater fear-reputation and is "noisier," and Larloch is more the master manipulator, who works unseen. As in, you may never know how much he's affected you. I can only go by what Elminster (and on rare occasions Storm, or Laeral, or Volo[!]) tell me of the Realms, and the three Chosen of Mystra all think Larloch (even wherever he is now, bested by the Srinshee) is the greater threat. As El put it, "Vecna is a bogeyman, and his relics do harm. Larloch undresses thee and ye never even know it." Larloch plays the longer game, and is more patient and empathic and has a greater understanding of the multiverse, whereas Vecna is more self-centered. I trust El's judgment, because I must; without it, none of us know ANYTHING about the Realms.

Acererak is feared throughout the multiverse because he's an almost-always-active destructive force. However, that's a one-trick pony. "Hah! I shall destroy you TWICE!!!" ;}"
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Well, it's confused for Vecna and Acererak. Both of them are Greyhawk liches and there's no weave there, so we don't know what limits spells to 9th level and if it's possible to exceed that limitation or not. All we have to go by are the rule sets, all of which limit spells to 9th level. No rule set or supplement other than Forgotten Realms that I've ever heard of showed any wizard being able cast spells above 9th level, so I'd rule that it's a big no.

Larloch is different, though. We KNOW that that the Forgotten Realms setting allowed spells above 9th level up until Karsus cast his spell and Mystral sacrificed her self. Her reincarnation Mystra altered the weave to allow a maximum of 9th levels spells to be cast, so Larloch is limited to that level of spell, regardless of what spells he knows. The epic rules for 3e(which don't exist in 5e) get around that limitation by having no level, so either the old spells of above 9th level are converted to being epic spells, or he cannot cast them. If he could cast them in 3e, they were epic.

Now, suppose they did not get converted to being epic spells. What happens if Larloch goes to another plane where there is no weave. Wizards can still cast spells, so we are now confused again as to whether or not he can cast spells above 9th level. Since no high level/epic planar wizards could cast spells above 9th level spells in any rule set or supplement that I've ever seen or heard of, I'd rule that he could not cast them and that spells above 9th level were a Forgotten Realms specific feature.

2E High Level Campaign book had level 10 magic that was kind of redone in the Epic Level Handbook.

The Netherise spells were kind of similar they were not mega powerful in terms of combat but more worldshaping.

Quest spells were kind of similar concept.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
2E High Level Campaign book had level 10 magic that was kind of redone in the Epic Level Handbook.

The Netherise spells were kind of similar they were not mega powerful in terms of combat but more worldshaping.

Quest spells were kind of similar concept.

Interesting. I'm going to have to try and find that 2e book. I've never seen it before.
 


Iry

Legend
Both of them are Greyhawk liches and there's no weave there, so we don't know what limits spells to 9th level and if it's possible to exceed that limitation or not. All we have to go by are the rule sets, all of which limit spells to 9th level. No rule set or supplement other than Forgotten Realms that I've ever heard of showed any wizard being able cast spells above 9th level, so I'd rule that it's a big no.
Forgotten Realms had 12th level spells, that got limited down to 10th in 2nd Edition. Dark Sun went up to 10th level spells and psionics. Tome of Magic had quest spells of unknown-but-higher-than-anything-else level. Birthright had the whole Realm Spells section. And even before 2nd Edition there were the old Immortals Rules. Basically they have been around for a while in almost every setting, just not very codified.

Someone might correct me here, but I believe everyone uses the Weave in 5th Edition (without Mystra of course).

Larloch is different, though. We KNOW that that the Forgotten Realms setting allowed spells above 9th level up until Karsus cast his spell and Mystral sacrificed her self. Her reincarnation Mystra altered the weave to allow a maximum of 9th levels spells to be cast, so Larloch is limited to that level of spell, regardless of what spells he knows. The epic rules for 3e(which don't exist in 5e) get around that limitation by having no level, so either the old spells of above 9th level are converted to being epic spells, or he cannot cast them. If he could cast them in 3e, they were epic.
She banned 11th and 12th level spells. 10th level was still allowed. It wasn't until 3rd Edition that 9th level became the maximum in the Realms.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Forgotten Realms had 12th level spells, that got limited down to 10th in 2nd Edition. Dark Sun went up to 10th level spells and psionics. Tome of Magic had quest spells of unknown-but-higher-than-anything-else level. Birthright had the whole Realm Spells section. And even before 2nd Edition there were the old Immortals Rules. Basically they have been around for a while in almost every setting, just not very codified.

Someone might correct me here, but I believe everyone uses the Weave in 5th Edition (without Mystra of course).

She banned 11th and 12th level spells. 10th level was still allowed. It wasn't until 3rd Edition that 9th level became the maximum in the Realms.

A few things.

First, the 5e PHB lists Mystra as a 5e Forgotten Realms deity, so she's back and in charge of the weave.

Second, I pulled out my 2e Netheril setting and looked at it. It had this to say about Karsus's Avatar. "The notes regarding the spells essence were nowhere to be found. It's believed that Mystra, the reincarnated form of Mystral, snatched the spell information from the ruins of Karsus's enclave and sent it on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe." It's not likely that despite Larloch knowing Netherese magic, he was ever able to learn Karsus's Avatar.

Third, there was only one 12th level spell ever made, at least that made it into the setting books, so Larloch may not know any of those at all.

Fourth, according to my Lords of Darkness book, Larloch is only 32nd level, and that's in 3e Forgotten Realms era where he's gained some more power since Netheril fell. He was never strong enough to cast 12th level spells, so he couldn't have learned Karsus's Avatar, let alone cast it.

Fifth, those 10th level spells in Darksun were psionically amplified and you had to be a Dragon or Evangion to even be able to cast them. Single class wizards couldn't do it. You had to be 20th level wizard/20th level psionicist to even become one of those.

Sixth, the Immortal level spells were specifically spells no mortal could learn, not spells that were higher than 9th level. When Immortals actually used magic, they used mortal magic from 1st-9th level.

I don't know about Birthright or quest spells, but the names suggest epic spellcasting, not necessarily spell levels higher than 9th.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Someone might correct me here, but I believe everyone uses the Weave in 5th Edition (without Mystra of course).

We do not use the Weave.

Having said that, the "sidebar" in the PH does say that without the "Weave" magic is locked away, and "even the mightiest of mages can't even light a candle."

But that is in a sidebar, where they put flavor, IMHO.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
A few things.

First, the 5e PHB lists Mystra as a 5e Forgotten Realms deity, so she's back and in charge of the weave.

Second, I pulled out my 2e Netheril setting and looked at it. It had this to say about Karsus's Avatar. "The notes regarding the spells essence were nowhere to be found. It's believed that Mystra, the reincarnated form of Mystral, snatched the spell information from the ruins of Karsus's enclave and sent it on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe." It's not likely that despite Larloch knowing Netherese magic, he was ever able to learn Karsus's Avatar.

Third, there was only one 12th level spell ever made, at least that made it into the setting books, so Larloch may not know any of those at all.

Fourth, according to my Lords of Darkness book, Larloch is only 32nd level, and that's in 3e Forgotten Realms era where he's gained some more power since Netheril fell. He was never strong enough to cast 12th level spells, so he couldn't have learned Karsus's Avatar, let alone cast it.

Fifth, those 10th level spells in Darksun were psionically amplified and you had to be a Dragon or Evangion to even be able to cast them. Single class wizards couldn't do it. You had to be 20th level wizard/20th level psionicist to even become one of those.

Sixth, the Immortal level spells were specifically spells no mortal could learn, not spells that were higher than 9th level. When Immortals actually used magic, they used mortal magic from 1st-9th level.

I don't know about Birthright or quest spells, but the names suggest epic spellcasting, not necessarily spell levels higher than 9th.

Karsus Avatar was in Faith's and Avatars or Powers and Pantheon's. It's incomplete but it's a write up of sorts.

Guess who likes their 2E stuff. The spell worked as designed but Karsus chose the wrong good to target IMHO.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Karsus Avatar was in Faith's and Avatars or Powers and Pantheon's. It's incomplete but it's a write up of sorts.

Is it more complete than the one in the 2e Netheril campaign setting?

Guess who likes their 2E stuff. The spell worked as designed but Karsus chose the wrong good to target IMHO.

I like my 2e stuff as well, but during a move a box of it vanished. I suspect it got tossed with some garbage boxes :( I don't have much left.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Is it more complete than the one in the 2e Netheril campaign setting?
Thanks


I like my 2e stuff as well, but during a move a box of it vanished. I suspect it got tossed with some garbage boxes :( I don't have much left.

Yes I believe so. I had a quick look at my boxed set/PDF the other day.

The Netherise arcanist is basically a prototype 3E sorcerer or spell point 5E dmg wizard although Spells and Magic had spell point option.

Found all sorts if things rereading my 2E stuff a few years ago including the advantage mechanic.
 
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