Vecna v Acererak v Larloch? Who's The Most Powerful Lich?

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

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"Heh. I've been asked this many times before, and although part of me wonders what's the point of all "who's more powerful?" questions, the answer is: it depends. In terms of raw personal BATTLE power, the answer is likely Vecna. Though so much of his power is vested in his Hand and his Eye that unless they can all be in one place, Larloch might pack more punch. Not that he would fight toe-to-toe in battle, because that isn't Larloch's way; he views liches who do that as idiot failures. Larloch's way is to manipulate from behind the scenes to lead anyone seeking him, or trying to cross him, astray, so they never come into contact with him. If need be, he'd hurl his many, many servitor liches at them, most of whom are personally more powerful than Acererak.

Larloch and Vecna both have a wider reach and influence on the worlds around them than Acererak, so if you're measuring that way, Acererak is left behind. But when it comes to measuring Larloch and Vecna against each other in terms of influence, it's a matter of style: Vecna has the greater fear-reputation and is "noisier," and Larloch is more the master manipulator, who works unseen. As in, you may never know how much he's affected you. I can only go by what Elminster (and on rare occasions Storm, or Laeral, or Volo[!]) tell me of the Realms, and the three Chosen of Mystra all think Larloch (even wherever he is now, bested by the Srinshee) is the greater threat. As El put it, "Vecna is a bogeyman, and his relics do harm. Larloch undresses thee and ye never even know it." Larloch plays the longer game, and is more patient and empathic and has a greater understanding of the multiverse, whereas Vecna is more self-centered. I trust El's judgment, because I must; without it, none of us know ANYTHING about the Realms.

Acererak is feared throughout the multiverse because he's an almost-always-active destructive force. However, that's a one-trick pony. "Hah! I shall destroy you TWICE!!!" ;}"
 

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Voadam

Legend

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Iry

Legend
First, the 5e PHB lists Mystra as a 5e Forgotten Realms deity, so she's back and in charge of the weave.
I was talking about the Weave outside of FR.
Second, I pulled out my 2e Netheril setting and looked at it. It had this to say about Karsus's Avatar. "The notes regarding the spells essence were nowhere to be found. It's believed that Mystra, the reincarnated form of Mystral, snatched the spell information from the ruins of Karsus's enclave and sent it on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe." It's not likely that despite Larloch knowing Netherese magic, he was ever able to learn Karsus's Avatar.
Larloch does not know Karsus's Avatar (not that he would cast it even if he could).
Fifth, those 10th level spells in Darksun were psionically amplified and you had to be a Dragon or Evangion to even be able to cast them. Single class wizards couldn't do it. You had to be 20th level wizard/20th level psionicist to even become one of those.

Sixth, the Immortal level spells were specifically spells no mortal could learn, not spells that were higher than 9th level. When Immortals actually used magic, they used mortal magic from 1st-9th level.

I don't know about Birthright or quest spells, but the names suggest epic spellcasting, not necessarily spell levels higher than 9th.
We are offering you examples of 10th+ casting from sources outside of FR, since you were unfamiliar with them. We're not suggesting Larloch can cast them.
 



Zardnaar

Legend
Forgotten Realms is the only place I've ever heard of the Weave. I don't think it exists in other settings.

For the most part magic is magic. Netherise spells might not work on other world's and Dregoth on Faerun might be unable to cast spells as magical energy can't be drawn from plants.
Mystara can't do that much on other world's. She can cut off visiting spellcasters from the weave on Faerun though.
 
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cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I was rather fond of the Weave being local to the Forgotten Realms setting, so I won't be incorporating this change, but thanks for finding it. :)
It's a change in the lore I ignore in much the same way that I ignore the elf lore which has them all coming from corellon.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Forgotten Realms had 12th level spells, that got limited down to 10th in 2nd Edition. Dark Sun went up to 10th level spells and psionics. Tome of Magic had quest spells of unknown-but-higher-than-anything-else level. Birthright had the whole Realm Spells section. And even before 2nd Edition there were the old Immortals Rules. Basically they have been around for a while in almost every setting, just not very codified.

You'd think that they would have tried to achieve some sort of consistency and coherence in the execution of "higher than 9th-level spells" department within 1e & 2e at least. But it sounds like they didn't even try.
 


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