Vengeful Vigilance...wha?

[jimmifett]

Can someone please explain how Vengeful Vigilance (D375, Paladin Utility 10) works?

When does my free action occur? Do I immediately apply -2 for mark to his attack roll? Would I get to inflict the DC damage if I have not already used DC Damage against him before the start of my next turn? (unless his attack is targtting will of course, then I suppose I'd get to apply the damage anyway).

Also, how would the recent errata for free actions apply to this?

-Jim

 

[dvorak]

posting power in question

Written via DDI Compendium

Daily

Divine, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Effect: Until the stance ends, any time an enemy within 5 squares of you makes an attack that does not include you, you can use divine challenge on that enemy as a free action. If the triggering attack is against Will and you mark the attacker, it immediately takes the damage your divine challenge mark normally deals.

 

[jimmifett]

Thank you for the post from compendium.

What I am looking for however is interpretations on the implimentation of the power, especially from a DM point of view in ruling what happens when this occurs and timing issues.

For instance, I fail to see the usefulness of this power if it does not, at the very minimum, immediately reduce the attack roll by two. It would simply be a way to move my DC around as a free action without worrying about engaging the enemy.

 

[MerricB]

Designers really get into trouble when they provide rules for responding to someone else's action... then don't apply them everywhere, don't they?

My ruling would be that it resolves before the attack does, and they take the -2 attack penalty for not attacking you.

Note that Divine Challenge only deals damage *once* per creature; there's the possibility of dealing it many times if they're using Will attacks.

The recent errata to free actions doesn't apply, as you're not making an attack.

Cheers!

 

[jimmifett]

Designers really get into trouble when they provide rules for responding to someone else's action... then don't apply them everywhere, don't they?

My ruling would be that it resolves before the attack does, and they take the -2 attack penalty for not attacking you.

Note that Divine Challenge only deals damage *once* per creature; there's the possibility of dealing it many times if they're using Will attacks.

The recent errata to free actions doesn't apply, as you're not making an attack.

Cheers!

Much thanks, that is mostly how I was reading it.
I would be on the fence if an attack vs will would be an exception to the once per creature rule for DC. I'd prolly do a Hi/Low for it.

 

[MerricB]

Much thanks, that is mostly how I was reading it.
I would be on the fence if an attack vs will would be an exception to the once per creature rule for DC. I'd prolly do a Hi/Low for it.

The thing is this: It's not an exception, it's an added power! It doesn't change the rules for DC at all; it's an additional ability given by that prayer.

Cheers!

 

[Saeviomagy]

There really needs to be some sort of blanket ruling on when a free action with a trigger actually happens.

In most cases, I'd lean towards "after the trigger but before anything else". Since "making an attack" is before "rolling for the attack", the -2 would be applied.

If the power had said "hits with an attack", then the -2 would not apply, unlike an immediate interrupt which can modify a roll after success is determined and have that modification apply to the result.

 

[jimmifett]

So WotC CS finally got back to me on this.

Apparently, the triggering attack wouldn't be affected at all (unless vs will in which case it just gets the radiant damage), but any other attacks made by that creature would be subject to the DC penalties.

I guess this would be beneficial to allow teammates that got hit to have a better chance of moving away without getting hit by an OA, or at least punishing the monster for attmepting the OA.

 

[bganon]

As written it appears rather ambiguous. But given the "Vengeful" in the name, I'd guess the intent was that the DC was meant to happen after the triggering attack resolves.

If it happened before the trigger, it could potentially deal a rather crazy amount of automatic damage over an encounter, especially since you can move your DC around multiple times per round with it. I think it's meant to be a flavorful way of shifting your challenge around in response to new threats, rather than basically automarking every monster within 5 squares.