Versatile Spellcaster feat from Races of the Dragon

[Thanee]

If only the wording of the feat supported this...

It doesn't need to. You cannot cast Sorcerer spells with Warmage spell slots. That's the basic rule.

The feat allows you to use two lower level slots in place of one higher level slot.

Then we have this 'that you know' part. What is that, anyways? Maybe it suffices to beat a Spellcraft DC of 15+spell level in order to 'know' a spell? Now that's versatile!

Terms in D&D are not well-defined, unfortunately. In any case, the intent is obvious.

Here's a quote for you people:

CHOOSING A SPELL
First you must choose which spell to cast. If you’re a cleric, druid, experienced paladin, experienced ranger, or wizard, you select from among spells prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast (see Preparing Wizard Spells and Preparing Divine Spells). If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.

So, do you think, that a Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 19 can use Sorcerer spell slots to cast Cure Light Wounds?

Do you think that is intended?

No?

Thought so.

Bye
Thanee

 

[IcyCool]

The feat allows you to use two lower level slots in place of one higher level slot.

Well, specifically, it allows you to : "use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." (emphasis mine)

Then we have this 'that you know' part. What is that, anyways? Maybe it suffices to beat a Spellcraft DC of 15+spell level in order to 'know' a spell? Now that's versatile!

Read through the sorcerer description. You'll see a chart titled Sorcerer Spells Known. A wizard knows all the spells in his spell book. A cleric or druid knows all the spells on their spell list. Spells known is very well-defined.

So, do you think, that a Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 19 can use Sorcerer spell slots to cast Cure Light Wounds?

Do you think that is intended?

Yes. By the rules, he'd use two zero-level sorcerer slots to cast any 1st-level cleric spell he knows.

 

[Deset Gled]

This discussion is virtually the same as the topic of whether or not a Mystic Theurge can give up wizard spells to cast cure spells. The cleric spellcasting ability states that they can "drop a prepared spell" to cast a cure spell, but doesn't specify if it has to be a cleric spell. It is implicit that this statement only applies to cleric spells, as it is in the cleric class description, but is not stated explicitly.

Just as the cleric casting description assumes it is only talking about cleric spells, this feat seems to assume that the caster only has spontaneous spells from one source.

Given that all the arguements about these topics refer back to implicit statements and assumptions on intent, there is not way to reach a concrete answer. I believe it's best to just rule one way and be consistent.

 

[werk]

So, do you think, that a Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 19 can use Sorcerer spell slots to cast Cure Light Wounds?

Do you think that is intended?

No?

Thought so.

So you think it's broken for a 20th level character, 19th level sorcerer, to cast cure light wounds by sacrificing 2 - 0th level cantrips?

I don't think that would rend my campaign in twain.

Even if you make him 10/10, he can drop 2 3rd level sor spells for a cure critical, or 2 4th level spells for a mass cure light. Beneficial, to be sure, but not as beneficial as casting 9th level sor spells.

I agree that it is not in line with obvious interpretation, but still am having trouble finding the real problem.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So you think it's broken for a 20th level character, 19th level sorcerer, to cast cure light wounds by sacrificing 2 - 0th level cantrips?

I don't think that would rend my campaign in twain.

It won't rend it in twain, but it's definitely a much better option to use one higher level spell rather than two lower level slots (for curing* at least). If a cleric has a choice between two cure light wounds or one cure moderate wound, the cure moderate will always be better (on average) once the cleric is above 5th level. A cure light wound will always better than two cure minor wounds, regardless of level.

Couple this into the fact that the cleric can now convert domain spells (previously unable to spontaneously convert domain spells), and it's clear that this feat is a powerful ability.

* An oddity occurs between 4th and 5th level, where mass cure light wounds is not better than cure critical wounds for a single target. Another between 5th and 6th level where heal is far better than two mass cure light wounds for a single target.

 

[Thanee]

So you think it's broken for a 20th level character, 19th level sorcerer, to cast cure light wounds by sacrificing 2 - 0th level cantrips?

Read my post again, please. I didn't speak of Versatile Spellcaster there.

With the core rules alone (if you read it like some here do) a cleric/sorcerer could spend all sorcerer spells (one by one) to cast all cleric spells (up to the level known).

This is very clearly not the intention of the core rules to allow this.


I have made no statement as to whether I think it would be balanced, broken, or whatnot. I speak purely of intent.

I also have an explanation why the wordings are chosen this way... they are phrased for single class characters. Most of the time, the rules assume a character to be single-classed, when they explain how something works. This lack of consideration concerning multiclassed characters obviously creates a lot of vagueness and ambiguity.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Well, specifically, it allows you to : "use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." (emphasis mine)

Yes, I'm aware of that part. It's the same phrase used in my core rules quote posted above.

Please also read the post above this.

Read through the sorcerer description. You'll see a chart titled Sorcerer Spells Known.

And why is it exactly that and no other application of 'a spell you know'?

Ok, ok, to be honest, I totally agree with you that a spell you know refers to the spells known of the character class in question. I only do not agree, that it refers to the character as a whole (see the core rules quote above and the post above this for explanation).

Spells known is very well-defined.

I hope you are only kidding here.

Yes. By the rules, he'd use two zero-level sorcerer slots to cast any 1st-level cleric spell he knows.

No, no. I wasn't speaking of Versatile Spellcaster there. See post above this, please.

Bye
Thanee

 

[IcyCool]

I hope you are only kidding here.

I'm not. While it is not in the glossary, every spellcasting class has an entry describing what spells the character can know. It's pretty clear.

No, no. I wasn't speaking of Versatile Spellcaster there. See post above this, please.

Ah, my mistake, I thought you were. Quite a bit of the "Spells" entry hints and implies that the sorcerer can only cast his sorcerer spells via his sorcerer spell slots. It does not specifically say that however. So technically, yes, you are correct and no, I don't think that was the designer's intent.

I do think the feat has a different intent, however.

I also think that it was the designer's intent that the feat only work with casters who don't have to prepare their spells (Bard, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Warmage, etc.). So no Cleric/sorcerer's swapping out sorcerer slots to cast cleric spells, although a Favored Soul/Sorcerer could do so. I might also make an exception for positive-aligned clerics using sorcerer slots to cast cure spells or negative-aligned cleris using sorcerer slots to cast inflict spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

There's a couple of things interesting about this. The first is the extremely poor wording. Note that strictly speaking on the definition of "spontaneous casting", sorcerers do not have the ability to spontaneously cast spells. Only clerics and druids do.

It depends on where in the rules you get your interpretation of "Ability to spontaneously cast spells":

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

 

[Mistwell]

It doesn't need to. You cannot cast Sorcerer spells with Warmage spell slots. That's the basic rule.

We already know the feat is making a change to the basic rules. That is in fact the point of the feat, to change the basic rule.

The feat allows you to use two lower level slots in place of one higher level slot.

Then we have this 'that you know' part. What is that, anyways? Maybe it suffices to beat a Spellcraft DC of 15+spell level in order to 'know' a spell? Now that's versatile!

Terms in D&D are not well-defined, unfortunately. In any case, the intent is obvious.

I disagree. Others disagree as well. Several of us do not think the intent is clear.

Here's a quote for you people:

For that stuff, I do think the intent was clear. For this one, I do not. I do think one of the purposes of this feat is to make a multi-class caster with two different spellcasting classes have a slightly (and only slightly) easier time casting spells. I do think that may well be the intent. And given it's not at all broken, I'm not sure why you are so adamant on this one that you are certain of the intent. Generally speaking, if something is written vaguely, and the interpretation that seems a bit unusual to you isn't in any way broken, we tend to engage in the discussion rather than continuing to dwell on how "obvious" your personal interpretation is to you.