Vile Darkness- Controversy and the past

[herald]

Canis said:

You'd be a lot more convincing if all your arguments weren't "Your opinion is different than mine, so you must be a kow-towing panty-waist."

What he is saying is quite differant.

If you can't look someone in the eye and say your a gamer with pride, then maybe you should take up another hobby.

No one is asking you to kick butt, or hurt anyone. No one is even asking you to use a harsh tone.

But we are saying, be a gamer and be proud.

 

[Dremen]

We have this niffty little thing in our Bill of Rights called the First Ammendment. WotC has this right just like we all do. Yes it's true that many of our rights have been repressed to a certain degree, but they are still there. Our founding fathers attested that these rights were universal to man not GIVEN by any government. Some times you might have something to risk by excercising your rights.

Many people try to limit anothers right to free speech because they find it offensive. They are in my opinion even more morally depraved than the party they are trying to silence. This freedom is a proctection for us all.

We all have the power of censorship. Turn off the TV or change the channel. Or don't buy BoVD if you find it offensive. I personally have NO interest in buying it. And I won't but WotC has every right to print it. I have every right to not buy it.

The far right christain fanatics are not rational people in general. Nothing you do will be good enough for them unless you convert. Even among the converted they can't get along. Penticostals dislike Baptists dislike Methodists etc ad nausium. These people look for things anything to fight against. I was once a Penticostal myself for a few years, then a baptist then a ..... Any way you will NEVER be able to appease them. They have money and a measure of power and they out number us. If they do not like something they will fight it for the joy of the conflict itself. They see anything not of thier church as satanic. Drinking, Card Games, D&D etc. Many of them remember the 80's and if you bring it up they say D&D is evil. This is thier default opinion. (Any thing they don't understand is evil.) Some of these people ARE rational and have an open mind and you can convince them about the truth. Many just don't care, and have made up thier minds and only god himself or thier pastor can change it. So convert thoose you can, and don't worry about thoose you cannot. Just having the word Dungeons and Dragons is enough evidice for a conviction for them. The fact that there are 'demons' and 'devils' and 'magic' is enough for them to condemn D&D. BoVD is not going to make a difference one way or the other.

We need to assert our freedoms even more now after 9-11 in this country. Our current political climate is one of 'reducing freedoms' for safety sake. Our founders had some harsh words for this kind of behavior and thinking. So I say to WotC way to go for NOT bowing to the opinions of a few vocal people. Print what you want and we will vote with our dollars which is our most powerfull tool.

The fate of BoVD and any like products will be decided in the hobby stores and bookshops, not any pulpit or court room.

-D

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

...SNIP....

Seriously, folks, grow a pair. Please.

Preach on, my brother, preach on.

 

[Psion]

I find all this terror of extremists preventing children from playing D&D, banning from schools, even fear of lawsuits, not only unjustified, but unjustifiable.

I'm not afraid of extemists. They'll wail just like they have always wailed.

I am concerned about concerned but otherwise reasonable parents stopping a would be gamer because the game has content that truly is objectionable.

 

[Psion]

There is a fundimental difference in our two positions. You are actively trying to stifle creative freedom, and I am advocating it.

Again, wrong.

Wizards is the party of concern here. I cannot make wizards stop printing anything. I can make them consider if the creative direction is meeting the needs of their audience.

The first ammendment does not prohibit me from trying to influence others in a business relationship, sorry, and again this whole line of reasoning is specious.

I don't really like gnomes,

Do gnomes OFFEND you? Would you feel the need to keep certain books out of the hands of your children lest they be exposed to graphic material about GNOMES?

You do not have the moral right to try to prevent me from having access to what I find entertaining.

You are trying to grope for moral high ground here buy saying I am "preventing" you from doing something. Sorry, it doesn't work that way and a constitutional law scholar would laugh you out of the room.

I have a moral right to let WotC or any other publisher know that I consider certain sorts of material objectionable, and it is then up to them to decide which creative direction to go.

But YOU don't have the moral right to try to prevent me from expressing this, sorry.

 

[Psion]

Pardon me if I'm being thick, Psion, but you did post this as an example of a "specious analogy," right?

Inasmuch as I feel most analogies are weak methods of proof. I do think my analogy is more valid than his though.

I mean, I don't much like Epic-level gaming. And if I start seeing Epic crap piling up into every book I see from now on, I'll be annoyed.

That's precisely where I am coming from. If BoVD is the last book to hoe this row, I would be happy. (And for that matter, as I have said in earlier posts, it is not the BoVD as a whole that concerns me, just a feat and a class that I know of in BoVD and 2 spells in Dragon 300). My concern is that if it is well accepted, that future products might have more of this stuff. I am being vocal about this to keep this from happening.

But I don't expect to see that, because it's a sourcebook. The fact that one product may contain a little bit of necrophilia in it does NOT indicate that WOTC is planning on turning into the Corpse-Lover's Clearing House.

I can only hope that you are right.

 

[Psion]

If you can't look someone in the eye and say your a gamer with pride, then maybe you should take up another hobby.

Precisely. Right now I can say I am a gamer with pride. If gaming becomes associated with necrophilia and other grossness, I will no longer be able to. I'd rather prevent that.

 

[Mallus]

Hey Psion...

Speaking out to Wizards about our preferences is merely making them consider whether it is a wise business decision to put out "edgy" material.

There is a world of difference.

Can I ask you something... what's inherently different about the gaming industry, as opposed to say, comics or anime, two other popular nerdy pursuits?

If Archie Comics can co-exist with Bondage Fairies {ahem, I've never actually read that little Japanese import myself...} or My Neighbor Totoro with Legend of the Overfiend {ahem, did see that one...} why can't material that ranges from the completely child friendly to the outright pornographic exist within the continuum of D&D product?

The existance of niche markets aimed at adults don't seem to hurting either of these kinds of entertainment {well, the comic industry is hurting, but not for that reason...}

Why do some people seem here seem to treat gaming a special case?

 

[Zappo]

I'm not afraid of extemists. They'll wail just like they have always wailed.

I am concerned about concerned but otherwise reasonable parents stopping a would be gamer because the game has content that truly is objectionable.

Ok, that's quantitatively better than fearing extremists, but it's qualitatively the same. Yeah, I know I've mispelt something there.

These parents can grow the brains needed to tell their kids "Play D&D without the BoVD", if that's what they want. Assuming that they are good enough as parents to try to understand what their kids are doing - and assuming that the BoVD actually has something that kids shouldn't see, which I'm sure isn't the case.

Anyway, that may or may not be a real danger, but if it is I still think it is not a good reason to avoid printing the BoVD. If anything, the BoVD should be used to get those parents to understand that this hobby (like reading or art) is complex and cannot be rejected or accepted mindlessly as a whole. Let them know that while there are adult publications (I ain't comparing the BoVD to that, OK?), it's not a good reason not to teach kids how to read.

And if some sad boy can't get the message through his dad, I'm truly sorry, but it's not a reason to place limits on the hobby as a whole... or to consider eternal the limits that have been bounding it until now.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Why? Becuase there is an aspect of the "hobby" that embarasses you? I'm embarassed by Vampire and all that crap being associated with D&D, the LARP stuff above all, but I still don't hide that I play D&D. If they don't like it screw 'em. Try telling someone that you love Slayer and Morbid Angel. Throw D&D on top of that and there are people who think I may be the antichrist. Don't look it, but what does that matter?

Who cares in the end?