Vile Darkness- Controversy and the past

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Thanks, Psion.

Geez, I step away from my computer for a second and this is what I get.

RobNJ,

1. Childish does not mean, "made for children." It means needlessly immature. The title/cover of the book is tailor-made to shock a certain kind of person. That's simply insensitive. And the fact that it's an inside joke doesn't change that.

2. I never said I don't like the idea of the book. It's been done (by less capable people than Monte Cook) and the fact is, I will either buy or borrow the book. What I don't like is the way it's being presented.

3. Did I ever use the words, "Don't print it." ???
I don't remember typing that. Concern about potential backlash is different from opposing the thing outright.

4. I wasn't trying to speak for anyone but myself. I am concerned about the long-term effects BoVD may or may not have on the gaming community. I used to be the kind of person who said, "Eh, that'll never happen again. We went through that B.S. in the '80s fine." The events post-Columbine in various school districts across the country made me think again. The events since the attack on the World Trade Center have made me look even harder. I wasn't aware any of these things were "selfish desires."

Thanks for making this such a friendly place to share my thoughts with others...

 

[herald]

But I would like anyone who wants to get involved with gaming to have a chance to do so, and I consider your callous attitude towards encouraging the participation of youth extremely selfish.

But to avoid making products because it might keep children from playing is also selfish.

If I want to teach a child to play cards, I don't start with "Poker", I start with "War".

War is a great game for kids, it's simple and keeps thier interest when they are very young.

But it doesn't last for long, So in a year or two, I might move on to "Go fish" or "Old Maid".

Then when the child gets alittle older I might show them a game that they really keep with them for life, "Hearts, or Spades, Or Rummy".

But after I they get to be about fourteen and fifteen, I am going to teach my kids about poker. We won't play for money, but we will play for something (Jellybeans or something), but I want them to understand how dangerous gambling can be, and I want them to understand moderation. (No I will not be giving them alcohol). By the time they are eighteen they should be hard to take advantage of should they enter a game and get in over their heads.
The point is simple. there are games for kids. There are games for young adults. There are games for adults. If you are the person who decides to take a young person into your game, I'm going to assume that you know your audiance and are not going to use BOVD. The same way I'm going to assume that your not going to expose that young person to anything else that might be questionable ith the presence of a minor. If your don't, you deserve the grief that you will get, and it will come, trust me.

If however you choose to play a game with people who have reached a age of majority, play with what ever you want. Buy what ever you want. If you decide that dressing like the cast of Rocky Horror Picture Show is what puts you in the mood go for it.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

My callous attitude is to self-ghettoizing people so afraid of what might happen that they try to hold down the rest of us. Children can play role playing games just fine without being exposed to stuff that certain shrill moralizers would claim damages them.

Wow.

Did you even read what was posted here previously?

No one here screamed "Think of the children! The BoVD will warp their minds!"

Rather, I said, "Think of the kids who might be blocked from playing D&D by moralizing demagogues who don't even bother researching what they're condemning."

Those statements are nearly exactly opposite.

 

[RobNJ]

Wow, a lot of posts. I am glad to see it, although the last few were a bit inflammatory.

If you're offended, that's as offended as I am at the premise of your argument. You can't cloak this in an innocent, "I'm just stating my opinion." That's not the case. You're advocating a change for Wizards that would negatively impact the kind of game I like to play. How dare you do that?

As everyone remains entitled to an opinion, I do not see why people have to malign someone in order to win an argument. Or make themselves feel better, whichever is the true cause of their angst.

My emotion comes more from people self-maligning. Why are we so weak and frail that we're willing to put up with this kind of bullying from so-called parents' groups? When your freedom is challenged, the commendable response isn't to duck and hide your head, it's to fight back. If you know people being victimized by the bigotry of others, do something about it. But make your action against the right party.

Though it's not on the same level, this would be like being in the middle of the Civil Rights movement and suggesting that if you just smiled at the white man and nodded your head, and knocked off all that voting, maybe he'd leave you alone. Repugnant. Even more repugnant because we don't have as much at stake here. It's not like we'll lose life or liberty if we go out on a limb and fight for the freedom to publish.

People have a right to be offended by the BoVD.

Wow, got any more revolutionary insights? How about saying that taxes are too high or racism is bad?

While I do not agree with it, they will be publishing it.

But you want to stop them. You advocate stopping them. And you ought to be ashamed of yourself for that.

There are lots of things I'm offended by, but I don't try to stop other people from enjoying them.

However, I disagree with Rob about no younger people being involved. Several high schools in my area now have formal DnD school clubs. People were beginning to think DnD a better activity than video games due to its social nature.

I didn't say no young people are involved. Read more carefully if you're going to address my points, and don't put words in my mouth. I said the game is played primarily by adults. It is. Facts. Deal with it.

Unfortunately, one high school has banned the club and DnD materials on campus due to Dragon #300 and the BoVD has come up at a school board meeting.

That smells like an urban legend. Do you have any proof?

Regardless, the answer isn't to try to stifle free expression. It's to fight those who try to stifle it. This is a basic moral precept. I find the censorious tone around here far more vile than make-pretend necrophilia.

Now, I am unsure why those who have a differing opinion need to 'grow a pair," but I have to disagree with people who want to end an argument by getting petty an combative. I see no reason that everyone cannot have their own opinion.

Congradulations, Charlie, you've got an opinion. That and a dollar will buy you a hamburger at McDonalds. I am combative because I am sick to death of people flagellating themselves and bowing and scraping to highly offensive pressure from people who claim to have a morally superior position. They do not. They are reality-impared. That's all.

 

[hellbender]

While agreeing with Daemonbolo, after seeing the Dragon and the Dungeon issues that are running alongside the BoVD, I think in the big picture, this book, if anything, is going to be a letdown to the 'BLOOD! BLOOD!' crowd. The article by Monte Cook in the Dragon regarding evil was the only thing I have read buy Monte Cook that seemed like a total no-brainer. And that Dungeon adventure (not written by Cook) was about as ridiculous as it gets.

As for RobNJ, you know, in America, you pretty much can't write offensive books or say offensive things anymore. Everyone is right, this isn't the 80's anymore, now life is a lot more limited and people are a lot more easily offended than they used to be. People that do and say inflammatory things have these people called lawyers that get paid a lot of money to undo the damages to the frail and weak. Therefore, 'growing a pair' and asserting yourself, out in the really real world, is a good way to get slapped with a lawsuit for some sundry thing or other. I am suprised Eric's Grandma didn't leap at your throat for taking the Lord's name in vain.

hellbender

 

[RobNJ]

1. Childish does not mean, "made for children." It means needlessly immature. The title/cover of the book is tailor-made to shock a certain kind of person. That's simply insensitive. And the fact that it's an inside joke doesn't change that.

Then you're using an extreme variant of the word. Shock isn't immature. No matter how often people say so. A finely tuned shock is hardly easy, nor is it something to be dismissed. I don't care whether Micheal Medved says so. It's just incorrect.

You'll have to do better than labeling something so to convince anyone that it is so. Explain how it's immature.

3. Did I ever use the words, "Don't print it." ???
I don't remember typing that. Concern about potential backlash is different from opposing the thing outright.

Concern about potential backlash is self-deluding in the extreme. It's also offensive in the extreme.

Those who would cause the backlash are not the people we have to worry about protecting. We worry about protecting the publisher who is producing a creative work. That's the morally correct position.

Thanks for making this such a friendly place to share my thoughts with others...

I know you are, but what am I.

Seriously, think about it for a second. Think about why this reaction may have been elicited. Could it possibly be because we have been hearing this particular brand of bull-crap for weeks here? Could it have been that you are scraping and kowtowing to reactionary imbiciles who deserve to be treated with contempt for being such?

This is a place for and by gamers. Why the hell are we acting like the Roller Pin Brigade?

 

[Pielorinho]

Unfortunately, one high school has banned the club and DnD materials on campus due to Dragon #300 and the BoVD has come up at a school board meeting. While parents were starting to see the light, WOTC has seen fit to remind them of the fears generated in the 80s. Maybe WOTC/Hasbro wanted to up sales. I do not see why the kids in High School have to suffer for it.

Seriously? That's bizarre -- can you provide us with some details? School name, administrators at the school, etc.? This might be an excellent education opportunity for the CAR-PGA (or however it's spelled).

This is not, in any case, WOTC's problem. This is the school being absurd. Imagine if a school found out that PCs could be used to play Quake Arena, and based on the violence in that game decided to ban PCs. Would you blame Gateway for making the PC? Would you blame ID Software for making an adult game?

Or would you blame the school for making a silly, illogical, unhelpful decision?

D&D is played by people who like violent games, and by people who don't. By people who like horror, and by people who don't.

I don't want WOTC to compromise all their products so that they meet my standards for fun and decency. If they did, there'd be no such thing as racial alignments -- something I find immoral from a world-designing viewpoint.

I'd appreciate it if other people don't try to convince WOTC to conform to their own morality in product design, either. And I'd especially appreciate it if folks not try to convince WOTC to flee from a crazed torch-wielding mob before said mob materializes.

Daniel

 

[RobNJ]

Rather, I said, "Think of the kids who might be blocked from playing D&D by moralizing demagogues who don't even bother researching what they're condemning."

And that's Uncle-Tom-ism applied to gaming. If someone spits in my face I don't think about what I did to make them spit on me. I think about what I'm going to do to make sure they don't do it again. Gain some self-respect.

 

[RobNJ]

As for RobNJ, you know, in America, you pretty much can't write offensive books or say offensive things anymore.

1. Offensiveness is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I find the bowing, scraping and toadying around here to be nauseating.

2. You live in a fantasy world. People publish things every day that offend other people. These things are almost never prevented. Witness the continued existence of reality TV and teen pop.

 

[Psion]

I will hope that that was not a deliberate and disingenuous misread. You can express your opinions all you want. But if you want to stop WotC from publishing stuff that doesn't meet your personal preferences, cut it the hell out.

No!

I will lobby for whatever preferences I feel the need to... with voice or wallet if need be.

You have no business trying to ruin my enjoyment of the hobby because of your personal tastes.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You have no business ruining my enjoyment because of your tastes. And if this is the beginning of a trend, and we accept trash like necrophilia in any supplement, then that is exactly what is happening.

Not to say that it is the start of a nasty trend, but we who find this sort of trash distasteful don't voice our opinions, how is WotC supposed to know that we don't want a replay of the Black Dog Game factory? Hmmm.

Express them all you want, but quit a) acting like you speak for anyone else

Don't think I ever did, except to say that (as can be seen in this very thread) there are others who would rather books like this be done tastefully.

or b) trying to prevent stuff you don't like from getting published.

Again, no.

It's rude. It'd be like me trying to prevent NFL football from being broadcast.

You have entered that place of specious arguments called "the analogy zone."

If products like this start popping up, we who are repulsed by things like necrophilia will keep running into it wherever we go and in whatever we buy. It's a bit more like second hand smoke, something else that I can and will take steps to avoid.

Did you hear me say that anyone considering to play the game should have their eyelids pinned back and be forced to read the Book of Vile Darkness?

No. Did you hear me say they shouldn't publish it? No. Again, I only know of two aspects of the book, and am reserving judgement on anything else. I just think that this "edgier than thou" campaign (especially as expressed by Johhny Wilson) has the real potential to make future products into a repellent thing, and I will feel free to express myself as a consumer and say this is not what I want.