Vile Darkness- Controversy and the past

[RobNJ]

Pardon me a minute, I need to let out a blood-curdling scream of frustration loud enough to make the bars on my cage hum.

Okay. Thanks. All better now.

All it will take is for some badly-parented sociopath to open fire on his high school. Then the school and media will pick up his life, shake it, and find out that his cousin's, best friend's boyfriend owns the BoVD, and that a week before he went on his killing spree, he happened to thumb through it for 10 minutes.

So what's the solution? Don't write anything that might offend someone, sometime, somewhere?

God damn it. I am so depressed that D&D fandom is caught between kicked dog syndrome and a level of moral reactionaryism that would make the staunchest fundie proud.

Are we so without balls that we're unwilling to allow there to be content that may or may not be for children in a game that is mostly played by adults? Are we so frightened by crap that happened two decades ago that we will cave in to the war before a single shot has been fired??

I mean what the hell is wrong with us?

The opposition to D&D has plenty of moral outrage. Well, I'm here to say that they're not the only one with that coin. I am outraged that we have internalized the arguements of a few repressed, bored and undersexed middle american housewives that were made back when parachute pants were still being worn to the extent that even now, when we are completely irrelevent to the rest of the world, we're paranoid and self-censorious.

I've seen the children of abusive families. If you raise your hands up to scratch your head, they duck. That's us, except no one has even raised a hand yet. We're anticipating attacks that will never come.

Seriously, folks, grow a pair. Please.

 

[Buttercup]

It's ok, RobNJ. Don't hurt yourself.

BTW, excellent post. And also BTW, I stand by everything I said in my first post to this thread, but especially my point #8.

to wit:

8. You'll never change anyone's mind anyway, so this whole discussion/argument is pointless.

So I'll meet you in another thread, ok?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

So what's the solution? Don't write anything that might offend someone, sometime, somewhere?

I've been misinterpreted yet again.

I'm NOT worried about the content. It's been done. And no one who would be bothered is going to bother looking at it anyway.

I'm NOT worried about the marketing angle. That's just business.

I AM worried about the title and cover.

For one thing, it's childish and deliberately inflammatory, but then, that's the marketing angle.

For another, if they published the exact same book with a cover and title that didn't stand out as being deliberately "vile" it would attract no more attention than and other D&D book has lately. In their effort to push the marketing angle, they're turning into a lightning rod for parental controversy that, if ultimately meaningless, is a MAJOR IRRITANT.

 

[Zappo]

RobNJ, I'm behind ya.

 

[RobNJ]

For one thing, it's childish and deliberately inflammatory, but then, that's the marketing angle.

Translation: "I don't like it." It's not childish. It's not deliberately inflammatory. I want more than "it's childish." Explain how it is made for children.

As for its inflammatory nature, it's only inflammatory if someone who's going to be inflamed is going to see it. They're not. Or if they do they had better worry about State of Emergency first. Its name isn't inflammatory, it's geek-nostalgia. It's an inside frigging joke.

All this comes down to is, "I don't like it, don't print it." Or, "I think others might be upset about it, don't print it."

I am really sick to death of people trying to make decisions on behalf of fandom without consulting me first. I am really sick of people thinking their opinion is like a golden apple plucked from the heavens. Don't like it, don't buy it. Don't try and feed me some line of bullcrap that you're concerned for the children. Won't somebody please think of the children!!! The children will get along fine. I did. I got into D&D in the 80s, when I was between 7 and 17. I managed just fine.

And by the way, my, "don't speak for me," also goes for those people who want to defend me from too many golems in a book, or from a book that has too many prestige classes.

Try and look beyond your own selfish frigging desires and realize that these books aren't published for you. I don't want D&D: The Gaming System for Rob. Know why? Because I don't live in a delusional world where I think the publishers of books can read my mind and give me precisely what I want, and screw everyone else. I am old enough to realize that I live in a world with other people who have likes and dislikes that differ from my precise needs and wants. I don't want the world to diaper me and wipe my ass. I'm capable of doing that on my own.

For another, if they published the exact same book with a cover and title that didn't stand out as being deliberately "vile" it would attract no more attention than and other D&D book has lately. In their effort to push the marketing angle, they're turning into a lightning rod for parental controversy that, if ultimately meaningless, is a MAJOR IRRITANT.

There will be no goddamned parental controversy. We don't matter. There aren't enough kids who are still playing the game.

"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake."

I think the world needs more humbling. This corner of it especially. We're gaming geeks who are screwing around with a marginal, forgotten hobby. We're less relevent than Civil War reenactors. We're less relevent than foot fetishists. We're less relevent than stamp collectors or any number of other things. We're marginal. The world doesn't know we're around. They don't care we're around.

 

[herald]

Ok, I have to agree with RobNJ,

And let me go on the record and say I predict there will be no public nation-wide backlash because of this book. Period.

I'm sick of hearing what people who don't game think of us. I'm more than just a gamer. My personal identity extends beyond that and I refuse to be pidgen-hold into some sterotype. Those people who are afraid that this will "hurt" the cause need to get some thicker skin.

I don't care what kind of hobby you have, there are plenty of yahoos out there who will make it look like an obsession.

Into sports? Out of an entire stadium I can find you twenty or more football maniacs out there who will wear next to nothing in freezing weather painted blue, wh will be glad to rattle off any players statistics back to the point the player started high school.

Into gaming? Out of an entire convention I can find you twenty or more D&D maniacs who wear next to nothing in freezing weather painted blue, who will be glad to rattle off any gaming supplement back to the original Greyhawk boxed set.

We have no corner on the market on weird. We have no corner on the market on anything. We're just people who enjoy playing games. Some people aren't very good at playing games, and they will not understand what we do. Pity them and try to understand them, but don't let them change that about you.

What we do seem to have is alot of self loathing in the community. If you want to change the reputation of Gamers, you have to start with yourself. Live your life to the fullest, be as happy and successful as you can be. That's the best way to influence and impress people. It's also the best form of revenge.

Products don't make the reputation of the gaming world, gamers do!

 

[Psion]

I don't really give a rat's rear end about various people's opinions of how many prestige classes or golems there are in a book, but...

And by the way, my, "don't speak for me," also goes for those people who want to defend me from too many golems in a book, or from a book that has too many prestige classes.

So, what you are saying is that I should not bother expressing an opinion because it might conflict with yours?

I don't think I have to say how seriously I'm not going to take that suggestion.

There will be no goddamned parental controversy. We don't matter. There aren't enough kids who are still playing the game.
(...)
We're less relevent than Civil War reenactors. We're less relevent than foot fetishists. We're less relevent than stamp collectors or any number of other things. We're marginal. The world doesn't know we're around. They don't care we're around.

Y'know, I really don't care how big a blip gaming is on the radar. As the sci-fi channel proves, sometimes making a niche interest big ruins it.

But I would like anyone who wants to get involved with gaming to have a chance to do so, and I consider your callous attitude towards encouraging the participation of youth extremely selfish.

 

[herald]

Not to totally hijack this tread, but has anyone really looked at what is being made in the toy market recently.

Especially in the "Action Figure" market. They sell "Spawn" action figures in Toys r' Us. Not to mention Manga figures that make most Playboy Bunnies over dressed. ("Darkstalkers") anyone?

Computer games push the envelope all the time. American McGee's Alice fits right in on the "Vile" concept, and I'm sure that there were not too many id's checked in the eb by my house, YMMV.

The world has changed alot since the eighties.

 

[DaemonBolo]

Wow, a lot of posts. I am glad to see it, although the last few were a bit inflammatory. As everyone remains entitled to an opinion, I do not see why people have to malign someone in order to win an argument. Or make themselves feel better, whichever is the true cause of their angst.

People have a right to be offended by the BoVD. While I do not agree with it, they will be publishing it. However, I disagree with Rob about no younger people being involved. Several high schools in my area now have formal DnD school clubs. People were beginning to think DnD a better activity than video games due to its social nature.

Unfortunately, one high school has banned the club and DnD materials on campus due to Dragon #300 and the BoVD has come up at a school board meeting. While parents were starting to see the light, WOTC has seen fit to remind them of the fears generated in the 80s. Maybe WOTC/Hasbro wanted to up sales. I do not see why the kids in High School have to suffer for it.

Now, I am unsure why those who have a differing opinion need to 'grow a pair," but I have to disagree with people who want to end an argument by getting petty an combative. I see no reason that everyone cannot have their own opinion.

As for me, I see the effects of the "vile" material already. So far for being "below the radar."

Bolo's Rock!

 

[RobNJ]

So, what you are saying is that I should not bother expressing an opinion because it might conflict with yours?

I will hope that that was not a deliberate and disingenuous misread. You can express your opinions all you want. But if you want to stop WotC from publishing stuff that doesn't meet your personal preferences, cut it the hell out. You have no business trying to ruin my enjoyment of the hobby because of your personal tastes. Express them all you want, but quit a) acting like you speak for anyone else or b) trying to prevent stuff you don't like from getting published. It's rude. It'd be like me trying to prevent NFL football from being broadcast. I hate football. I even think the spectator form that is consumed on TV is harmful to American society by treating as gods people whose only redeeming feature is that they can catch and throw--people who are often actively discouraged from being thinkers. But it would be the height of arrogance for me to try to inflict my preferences on the world at large.

Before you prepare a flame, read one clause in that paragraph very carefully: "if you want to stop WotC from publishing". All of the "yous" thereafter refer to the hypothetical person who would do this.

But I would like anyone who wants to get involved with gaming to have a chance to do so, and I consider your callous attitude towards encouraging the participation of youth extremely selfish.

My callous attitude is to self-ghettoizing people so afraid of what might happen that they try to hold down the rest of us. Children can play role playing games just fine without being exposed to stuff that certain shrill moralizers would claim damages them.

Did you hear me say that anyone considering to play the game should have their eyelids pinned back and be forced to read the Book of Vile Darkness? No. But there is an audience for The Book of Vile Darkness, and how dare you try to take a book away from that audience? That's not your job. You don't exist to try to prevent me from getting what I want out of the game. Anyone who would do try to do so ought to feel ashamed of themselves.

Half of the commentary on this BoVD issue sounds like it comes out of the playbook of the reactionary f***wits that caused the problem in the first place. If you just take out BoVD and replace it with D&D, it's the exact same script. That sickens me. Hickman talked about feeling betrayed? Hearing him spout the exact same crap that various "parents groups" did is a betrayal of another kind.

And by the way, just like a few disgruntled gamers don't speak for me, I am also offended by these groups who act as though they speak for all parents. I am a parent. And personally I find the thought of a world where nothing can be produced for adults to be a far more chilling one to leave to my son than one with a little more boobie showing in prime-time.