Vile Darkness- Controversy and the past

[Barak]

Bah. Even if your arguments are right (and I don't say they are, see previous posters), people who rant against D&D never bother to rant about supplements, for some weird reason. Maybe it's lack of funds, or maybe they just don't understand that 1 game can be using many books. I don't know. But even in the bad 80s, all the complaints and ravings were about the DMG or the PHB. Heck, they even mostly left the MM alone. Why no ravings about, say Deities and Demigods? They encourage people to worship Gods that -actually- exist! But no. Theye didn't do that. If I was a nut and had wanted to rave that D&D is a tool of the devil, I could have mounted a much better argument then they did. They just don't know enough, and don't bother to find out. I doubt they'll -ever- mention BoVD.

And.. I would hate to think that they won. That they force people to censure themselves. Unless you believe that the BoVD is everything that you think they'll say it is, not wanting WoTC to publish it because it'll make people mad for all the wrong reasons is silly. If that argument is correct, Galileo's friends, family and students should have told him not to publish that the Earth is not the center of the Universe, since it would make the church real mad. I for one, am glad they didn't, or, if they did, am glad he didn't listen to them. If we go by that logic, nobody would do much, because everything we might do is bound to make someone else mad.

 

[Psion]

maddman75 wrote:
PKitty has a good point - AEG's Evil is a book that I have and it is defeinatly much worse than the BoVD.

Indeed, starting with the organization and editing...

- It is partially meant for players (one section PC, one DM)
- The DM section is mostly guidelines for running a campaign of evil PCs.

So? I don't see that as a great difference, really. BoVD gives you character creation guidelines... which can be used by PCs or NPCs.

Not that this is my major issue in the first place.

- There are extensive rules for demon summoning, including benefits if you make human sacrifices.
- There are feats to represent such things as hostage taking
- There are also feats you can gain by selling your soul to a demon.
- Discussions of the pros and cons of ways of extracting information - bribery, blackmail, extortion, and torture.

This is all so much "so what?" Demon summoning is par for the course in a fantasy game, and depraved players have been cutting off fingers of uncooperative foes long before any book had a chance to tell them how to do it.

What gets me personally is the "gross out factor stuff" that we saw in the dragon that seems to be in there just to get a reaction. That's the sort of stuff I can live without.

Nothing in Evil grossed me out, sorry. Whether BoVD is the same still remains to be seen, but the sounds of the Lichloved vile feat makes me fear that we will see more tasteless crap like Corpsebond. d20 Weekly editor Dale Donovon also expresses some doubts over the tastefulness of the Cancer Mage as well; that's more tragic than gross, but I can see his point.

I actually have this book. Its been out for ages. There was no hubbub, no protests.

Nor should have there been.

The proof that no one gives a crap about our games anymore IMO is that WW just released a supplement where the PCs are actually demons. Haven't seen any protests, any news releases from concerned groups, or any of the other effects that we saw in the 80s.

What, you missed the multiple flamewars about their tasteless advertising campaign regarding same?

That said, again my focus is not the fundamentalists. It's the normal people who would be repulsed by this stuff and the integrity of D&D itself. I don't want to have to tip-toe around gross-out factor stuff in D&D. If I don't speak up and let the publisher know that I don't want this kind of crap in D&D, it's all the more likely it will become more common.

WW is of no consequence to me. I already know that World of Darkness is a lost cause in the taste department and definitely not for me... I could really care less that another Monster: The Subtitle game is coming out to add more tastelessness to the pile of ickyness.

 

[Pielorinho]

Necrophilia is bad. Murder is worse. We have rules for murder in-game, including assassination, poisoning, killing helpless victims, burning people alive, raising them from the dead as damned souls, and so forth. I'm not too worried about adding Necrophilia to the list. In fact, I have trouble thinking of things you could add to the list that would be worse than what's already on the list.

This really seems to be a classic, "if you don't want it, don't buy it" scenario.

Daniel

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

There is one reason I'm concerned about BoVD:

Zero Tolerance.

We've managed to get away from that disaster somewhat. But has everyone forgotten that "Plays D&D" was one of the "danger signs" people were going on about after Columbine and what not?

All it will take is for some badly-parented sociopath to open fire on his high school. Then the school and media will pick up his life, shake it, and find out that his cousin's, best friend's boyfriend owns the BoVD, and that a week before he went on his killing spree, he happened to thumb through it for 10 minutes.

Since we CLEARLY can't suggest that complete lack of discipline, understanding, and basic empathy from his parents and teachers had anything to do with it, everyone will jump on his exposure to this "vile" material as the cause of the problem.

Helloooo, witch hunt.

And if you think that's implausible, you haven't been paying attention to the media and parent action groups.

 

[WayneLigon]

I used to think this as well, but that was because I forgot my history and we all knows what happens when you do that. Someone else on the board reminded me of it.

The 'D&D Controversy' of the 80's was the best thing that ever happened to the game. We'll never know what would have happened without it, of course, but it seems unlikely to me that D&D would have acheived the market penetration that it did without what was effectively free advertising on a national scale. It's ironic that what was reported was just as 'made up' as anything we've ever done. That huge sales spike is probably the reason we have all the other games out there as well.

I have yet to see a player truly dissuaded from the game by what the 'Christian juggernaut' thought or did. The really hard core 'fundies' tend to be an insular as, well, D&D players. They are not WOTC's customers. They probably never will be. The people that listen to them never will be. I have no illusions that what I do for a hobby will ever become a 'mainstream' hobby.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Sigh. Here we go again.

1. The book isn't published yet.
2. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
3. It's a resource for DMs not players.
4. It probably isn't that vile anyway.
5. Stop worrying so much about what other people think.
6. Game the way you like and let others do the same.
7. The nuts on the extreme right don't care about us anymore. They have bigger fish to fry.
8. You'll never change anyone's mind anyway, so this whole discussion/argument is pointless.

Amen brother. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I'll put my 2 cents in now since this thread is shorter and has much less hot air blowing about. I held this in as long as I could and refrained from commenting on the previous thread, but my will to resist has broken now so here it goes.

BoVD, like any other book, is entirely a matter of personal preference. It doesn't DO anything or cause anything to happen on its own. People make of it as they choose.

The thing that is irritating me the most about the threads on this matter is how no one but the people who created it and the publishers know what is ACTUALLY in the book. There is an amazing amount of commentary going on about a book that almost none of us have ever seen much less read.Can we save the commentary until AFTER the book actualy comes out so that we actually know what we are talking about?

It seems mighty premature and presumptuous to start condemning something that only a minute fraction of us have ever seen. Without having seen what is in the book all we are doing is arguing personal preference, which is always a waste of time. Most people aren't going to change their minds one way or another no matter how much philosophical dicta and hot air we spit out on the nature of evil until they actually see the book.

Remember, it is a BOOK. Nothing more, nothing less. You make of it whatever you choose to and nearly everyone WILL make whatever they choose of it regardless of what anyone else says.

I personally will at least look it over in the store because I want to see what it is about. I might not like it and I might not buy it, but once I have actually READ some of it, THEN I will comment rather than sucking up memory on this site commenting on something that I know nothing about.

That said, I suspect that there may be some indignant posts following this one. Have at it then.

Tzarevitch

 

[Pielorinho]

There is one reason I'm concerned about BoVD:

Zero Tolerance.

We've managed to get away from that disaster somewhat. But has everyone forgotten that "Plays D&D" was one of the "danger signs" people were going on about after Columbine and what not?

I've not forgotten it. But I've also not forgotten that the media didn't need the BoVD to make all sorts of crazy connections.

The "death and puppies" news industry will latch onto D&D as a source of Satanic inspiration for murderous youth no matter what we do. We could make the game all about pink unicorns who dance in rainbows and worship Jesus, and next time some middle-class punk decides to open up on his high school with an assault rifle, D&D would still be mentioned as a reason for his insanity.

Given the absurd connections that some media sources tend to make between D&D and crimes, I'm not worried about giving them grist for their mill. Their mill makes its own grist.

Daniel

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I have yet to see a player truly dissuaded from the game by what the 'Christian juggernaut' thought or did. The really hard core 'fundies' tend to be an insular as, well, D&D players. They are not WOTC's customers. They probably never will be. The people that listen to them never will be. I have no illusions that what I do for a hobby will ever become a 'mainstream' hobby.

That's not what worries me. "Zero Tolerance" systems in schools and the general trend in government and law enforcement since last September proves that Americans are increasingly willing to accept neo-fascism rather than deal with the notion that the world might actually be unsafe.

Already, because of Zero Tolerance, kids who played D&D were censured by their schools. BoVD, while it will have no impact on my life one way or another, has the potential to be a major problem for young players, whose hobby will increasingly be considered a "threat." And the unthinking masses of their parents will, just like with the last round of Zero Tolerance, roll over and accept it, or even encourage it.

 

[alsih2o]

All it will take is for some badly-parented sociopath to open fire on his high school. Then the school and media will pick up his life, shake it, and find out that his cousin's, best friend's boyfriend owns the BoVD, and that a week before he went on his killing spree, he happened to thumb through it for 10 minutes.

everyone will jump on his exposure to this "vile" material as the cause of the problem.

he may be right! think about all the things that changed after the last tiem this happened!!

first-

then-

and we can't forget-

oh, wait, i guess nothing changed, nothing got banned, nothing was eradicated from our society and no laws were instituted that afected any form of selfexpression (unless you consider underage people aquiring guns without waiting periods thru dorky girlfriends who go to gunshows self expression)

the "culture war" is over! rap music, mtv, d+d and beavis and butthead won, frank zappa led the charge over the walls and made the senate look like uneducated mules.

noone is ever going to ban, eradicate or slow the progress of d+d axcept for gamers. if enuf gamers start screaming from the inside something might happen, otherwise if we all relax and let one another pay and read as we wish all will be well

 

[Pielorinho]

Do y'all think that Monte Cook is sitting at home, and WOTC folks are sitting in their offices, looking at all the simultaneous threads pontificating on the dangers of the BoVD, and they're thinking just one word: "Eh-excellent"?

I hope so. Because otherwise they're probably snorting like a sleeping bulldog and thinking, "You tweakers! You haven't even seen the book yet! What's wrong with you?"

Any publicity, I suppose, is good publicity.

Daniel