Vile Darkness- Controversy and the past

[herald]

Canis said

Think of the kids who might be blocked from playing D&D by moralizing demagogues who don't even bother researching what they're condemning

And those individuals will remember what they did to them and develop a relization that demagogues are bad.

"Skateboarders are bad. Someone should stop them!"
"Rap music turns people into drug addicts, some one should stop them."
"MTV is teaching my kids to be sexual, my cable company should stop them."

Where I live, I have in my power one of the strongest tools to over ride any demagogue.

I call that tool, "The O-Mighty-Dollar"! And with that tool I walk bravely into stores and I tell the world That I play D&D. The world knows mostly because I use an almost just as handy tool called "The Debit Card" (It's power only works when you have the first tool.) Occationally, If I can't find what I'm looking for in a game store, I go to the mall and use "The Debit Card" with another importaint tool. "The Book Buyers Discount Card." Again, not as powerful, and you still need the first tool.

And when they swipe these cards through the magic card slots and use thier magic bar code wands on my oh so valuable book, a wonderful thing happens. People who control the wheel of industry LISTEN. They tally my purchace against other purchaces and they say to themselves, hmmm, maybe I'll sell more of those.

No occationally they get letters from people who say to them. You have made a product that has made me mad. You should make that sort of stuff. They then compare the stack of letters against the stack of money they made. The biggest pile wins. And sometimes that can be very impressive, because when people are angry, they can fill up a whole lot of paper.

Don't give into the hype people. The hype says we have to be PC and not do anything that makes us unpopular. The only thing that the hype will make you is fustrated and paranoid.

On a side note, I wonder how many average people can correctly place the state in which Columbine exists, if you asked them off the street.

(Watch as every member of EN world places it correctly!)

 

[Pielorinho]

Winces and glares over at the fellow hollering from the soapbox. Takes two big steps away from him.

Just so's folks know: while I think WOTC shouldn't modify their products in order to avoid a backlash from BADD-type folks, I don't think you should be insulted if you disagree with me. It's something on which intelligent people (and, apparently, stark raving mad people) can disagree.

Daniel

 

[Zappo]

I find all this terror of extremists preventing children from playing D&D, banning from schools, even fear of lawsuits, not only unjustified, but unjustifiable. The way towards advancement for this hobby is not catering to the whims of the reactionaries through self-censorship. How could it be? So, in the world there are people who will irrationally hate D&D because of the BoVD and similar books. Assuming that it is true, how can you think that not publishing those books will solve the problem?

That is not called solving the problem. It is called avoiding it! TSR has been so despised for changing "demon" to "tanar'ri", and now I hear people suggesting that printing a book is a bad idea - I think that choosing not to print it for fear of reaction is orders of magnitude more severe a self-censorship than any trivial name change. Nothing will ever change, this way.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

And that's Uncle-Tom-ism applied to gaming. If someone spits in my face I don't think about what I did to make them spit on me. I think about what I'm going to do to make sure they don't do it again. Gain some self-respect.

Is this how you pump your ego, by accusing others of not having enough?

You'd be a lot more convincing if all your arguments weren't "Your opinion is different than mine, so you must be a kow-towing panty-waist."

Also, read before reacting. Responses make more sense AFTER the stimulus has been processed.

 

[RobNJ]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You have no business ruining my enjoyment because of your tastes. And if this is the beginning of a trend, and we accept trash like necrophilia in any supplement, then that is exactly what is happening.

There is a fundimental difference in our two positions. You are actively trying to stifle creative freedom, and I am advocating it. If I win, there are options. If you win, there are less options. I don't really like gnomes, but I would be a self-important prick if I tried to prevent Wizards from publishing a book about them.

You do not have the moral right to try to prevent me from having access to what I find entertaining.

I am not preventing you from playing My Pretty Pony with swords, you ought not prevent me from playing Silence of the Lambs with swords.

You cannot give these two positions moral equivilency. They are not equivilent. Your position takes from me, my position is live and let live. Leave me and my game the hell alone.

Not to say that it is the start of a nasty trend, but we who find this sort of trash distasteful don't voice our opinions, how is WotC supposed to know that we don't want a replay of the Black Dog Game factory? Hmmm.

Then don't buy the frigging game. But you have no right to prevent me from buying it. None whatsoever. To do so is selfish and censorious and is a morally indefensible position.

You have entered that place of specious arguments called "the analogy zone."

This is a statement that is entirely lacking in the cleverness and insight you apparently felt it held. Rather than making some facile statement about the analogy zone, why don't you say why analogies are wrong, or what about my analogy was inept?

If products like this start popping up, we who are repulsed by things like necrophilia will keep running into it wherever we go and in whatever we buy.

What a load of fetid tripe. It is not second hand smoke, and it's facile and ridiculous for you to draw the comparison. You can avoid games labeled "mature". You can. If you claim you can't, then you show yourself to be an imbicile.

I just think that this "edgier than thou" campaign (especially as expressed by Johhny Wilson) has the real potential to make future products into a repellent thing, and I will feel free to express myself as a consumer and say this is not what I want.

And I will be free to label your actions selfish and thoughtless and censorious. And to point out your position of extreme moral turpitude.

 

[herald]

Here, Here !!! Well said!

Zappo said:

find all this terror of extremists preventing children from playing D&D, banning from schools, even fear of lawsuits, not only unjustified, but unjustifiable. The way towards advancement for this hobby is not catering to the whims of the reactionaries through self-censorship. How could it be? So, in the world there are people who will irrationally hate D&D because of the BoVD and similar books. Assuming that it is true, how can you think that not publishing those books will solve the problem?

That is not called solving the problem. It is called avoiding it! TSR has been so despised for changing "demon" to "tanar'ri", and now I hear people suggesting that printing a book is a bad idea - I think that choosing not to print it for fear of reaction is orders of magnitude more severe a self-censorship than any trivial name change. Nothing will ever change, this way.

 

[Psion]

Regardless, the answer isn't to try to stifle free expression. It's to fight those who try to stifle it. This is a basic moral precept. I find the censorious tone around here far more vile than make-pretend necrophilia.

"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Cut the crap. Censorship is when someone is prevented from expressing themselves.

Speaking out to Wizards about our preferences is merely making them consider whether it is a wise business decision to put out "edgy" material.

There is a world of difference.

And if I recall correctly, it was you who came here saying that I should not be expressing my distaste for necrophilia. If you are looking for a censorious tone, look no futher than your posts.

 

[RobNJ]

Is this how you pump your ego, by accusing others of not having enough?

Got it in one, Dr. Freud.

It's a very simple principle. If someone wrongs you, you don't try to figure out how you can avoid having drawn their unreasonable ire in the first place. Children understand this. So do you.

 

[Mallus]

I'd just like to point out...

... a few things from the annals of annecdotal American culture.

Conservative religious groups rail against Disney films nowadays. There was, in fact, a well-organized boycott a few years back. It seems unless a product sports a large cross on the package, or stars Jesus, you're going to rile these people.

Then there are the hyterical "Doom and Leonard DiCapprio made my son a gun-toting maniac" crowd, who may if fact be secular in addition to being dumb. These groups tend to be addressing the very personal anxiety about parenting in a society that practically demands working full-time in additon to child rearing. The real issues are far to big and complex to address, so they find other avenues in which to express there concern/anger.

Thus, I doubt any steps to sanitize gaming would be enough.
You could burn down every gaming shop, Electronics Boutique, multiplex, bookstore, and library and still not appease them. So why bother?

 

[Pielorinho]

You have entered that place of specious arguments called "the analogy zone."

If products like this start popping up, we who are repulsed by things like necrophilia will keep running into it wherever we go and in whatever we buy. It's a bit more like second hand smoke, something else that I can and will take steps to avoid.

Pardon me if I'm being thick, Psion, but you did post this as an example of a "specious analogy," right?

I mean, I don't much like Epic-level gaming. And if I start seeing Epic crap piling up into every book I see from now on, I'll be annoyed.

But I don't expect to see that, because it's a sourcebook. The fact that one product may contain a little bit of necrophilia in it does NOT indicate that WOTC is planning on turning into the Corpse-Lover's Clearing House.

One swallow does not make a spring. One book of vile darkness does not make a Black Dog.

And if you've got $50, I've got $50 that says we won't see necrophilia in 10% of D&D rulebooks in the year following the BoVD.

Daniel