Vile Darkness- Controversy and the past

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Canis said:


The core of my issue is that I can empathize with the 10-15 year old kid who's suspended from school because he games. Am I alone in thinking that sucks? Maybe all of you were the type of kid who rather enjoyed being suspended, or who wasn't bothered by rank injustice. It's one thing to be marginalized by other kids, and it's yet another to be in conflict with your parents over gaming (everybody rebels about something, anyway). It's something else entirely to be censured by an authority figure over it, even if that authority figure is misinformed.


Well of course I feel sorry for the kid, but I would have been the kid who was leading the charge against the authority figures, getting the ACLU in to hoot and hollar, and get the ignorant principal who suspended me to resign in shame. But my whole point is that if the school is going to suspend the kid for playing d&d, they'll do it with or without the BoVD. Why should the industry have to self-regulate itself because of what may or may not happen? I'd have no problem with a rating system such as that present on movies or video games, but I don't want to be the one to dictate what any company should or shouldn't publish, especially when such dictations would be pure speculation about a book that isn't even out yet.
 

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Canis said:
OK, one more. I couldn't resist this...

Man, when I was in college, did I know the only 27 college students in history who appreciated South Park more for the ironies and social commentary than for the fart jokes?

We must have been a weird bunch...

Okay, maybe South Park wasn't the best example, but it was the only one I could think of right offhand that had a necrophilia reference. But still, I think you get my point, there IS a market for more adult-oriented themes.

Oh, and while we're talking about the social commentary of South Park...the whole point of the movie was to poke fun at the people who think that they should react to vulgarities in the media by pointing fingers and laying blame, rather than taking an active role in the parenting of their children. Rather topical food for thought, if you ask me.
 

MeepoTheMighty said:
Oh, and while we're talking about the social commentary of South Park...the whole point of the movie was to poke fun at the people who think that they should react to vulgarities in the media by pointing fingers and laying blame, rather than taking an active role in the parenting of their children. Rather topical food for thought, if you ask me.

I was actually prepared to point that out had anyone said, "what social commentary?" Which I've heard from far too many people who watch the show.

"people who think that they should react to vulgarities in the media by pointing fingers and laying blame, rather than taking an active role in the parenting of their children" are one set of villains we could be facing here.

My point is that we shouldn't be deliberately baiting them.

If the book was being published by someone with less visibility, I wouldn't have started the argument.

If the book were being published with a cover that blended in better with the other products on the shelf, i wouldn't have started this argument.

The fact of the matter is that the book is designed so that when Momma Anglo-Saxon Protestant takes junior into the store to buy his comics, she's going to notice it. And then she's going to have kittens. And when comes over to Momma with anything even remotely resembling a dragon on the cover, Momma's going to flip out. And some kids in the local high school are going to pay for it.

And maybe you haven't noticed, but the ACLU isn't very concerned about the rights of Anglo-Saxon kids anywhere, much less in the Midwest.
 

The only possible controversy I can envisage regarding the BOVD is why people assume it is going to be something Morally reprehensible or corrupting, as thats just plain laughable.

I think as the recent sealed section of the Dragon magazine, which had excerpts of the BOVD inside showed very maturely and well is that there really isn't anything "that" bad going to be in the book, sure it touches on some things, which some may find difficult to roleplay or come to terms with using themselves, but it is all rpesented in a mature and sensible way and completely in a game context.

If someone has a problem with the content, then exert your democratic right to censor your own viewing habits and don;t buy, look at or use the book, but by the same token do not try to force your own beliefs, or view upon the rest of us, nor take nor seek to take our own right to choose what we do or do not purchase/view and use ourselves.

the craziest thing of all about the BOVD is that really it doesn;t contain anythign that we haven't seen or had mentioned in plenty of products before... but because this presents itself in a PR way as a Book of Vile Darkness... suddenly because we call it what it is these things are going to turn us into Axe Wielding nutcases.... that just isn't true.

If at the end of the day someone commits a bad act in real life, then sure they can blame this book, but thats an excuse and nothing more, the decision to do right or wrong is just that a Decision, and one everyone makes and it is to the individual we must look to to asnswer for those actions and not seek to place blame on a book or TV show, or Music CD, or any other trinket and trapping of modern day life.

heck 1st Edition D&D had a whole series of Adventures relating to slavery, but the aim of the adventures was to stop the slavers ring, resuce the slaves, stop the nasties... the message in them was not that slavery is good, just the opposite if anything it encouraged the message that these things are bad and that through the good playing the good guys that by stopping these things was a good act!.. so by using a dark subject a good message was given out.

The same logic will apply to BOVD by the very fact it is called the Book of VILE DARKNESS it is as good as saying the things mentioned and covered inside are bad things, things we should nto do, the message therefor is not to go out and commit them or that they are acceptable it instead stating clearly and for all to see that they are Evil and bad and unacceptable. A positive message!

I for one shall embrace the BOVD and gladly purchase it and the positive message it brings, and I can say with complete honesty, hand on my heart that after reading it I will be no more inclined to go out and sacrifice my next door neighbour, molest women or eat small babies than I was to start with.... because as before I read the book I still "choose" not to be that kind of person and to do those kinds of things.

And the same goes for RP in general the overall message is a positive one not a bad one, Persevere in what you hold dear, see that those who commit bad deeds are brought to call for it, do good where you can, work together, everyone is different, folks can work together whatever thier race/gender/ or skills, improve yourself.... all these and a thousand others are messages roleplaying tell us every time we play.

here endeth the rant.
 
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Re: Re: Hey Psion...

Psion said:


WotC is a single publisher; I am not concerned with the gaming market as a whole.

Now how would you feel if nudity offended you, but there was this really great comic coming out (something like Watchmen), but had a few nude picture in it? I think BoVD is a potentially very useful book, but I think a few aspects of it are in bad taste.

1) I must have misunderstood the scope of your your point. You're more concerned about Wizard's specifically, because of their role as industry leader... Puts things in a different light. I still don't exactly agree. They serve a large, diverse maket. I think its in everyone's best interest to encourage them to produce a variety of content.

2) Watchmen features tasteful nudity of Dr. Manhattan on the surface of Mars.... but we don't have time for that now... I suspect some of the BoVD is in bad taste, that would seem the point. I would also suspect there's more bad taste in your average horror novel. I'd suggest reading the BoVD --if you're buying it-- selectively. Ignore what offends you. I've found that's a handy skill to have when reading just about anything. Using this approach, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged went down like candy --and quickly too.
 

Neo said:
...
If someone has a problem with the content, then exert your democratic right to censor your own viewing habits and don;t buy, look at or use the book, but by the same token do not try to force your own beliefs, or view upon the rest of us, nor take nor seek to take our own right to choose what we do or do not purchase/view and use ourselves.
...

Could someone just quote me a passage from this thread where someone tried to force their anti-BoVD beliefs on someone else?

Six or seven people have said this now, and I have NO clue where it came from.

Excuse me for getting irritated, but I can only be told "not to force [my] own beliefs on [others]" so many times without wanting some proof I actually perpetrated the alleged crime.
 

Canis said:


Could someone just quote me a passage from this thread where someone tried to force their anti-BoVD beliefs on someone else?

Six or seven people have said this now, and I have NO clue where it came from.

Excuse me for getting irritated, but I can only be told "not to force [my] own beliefs on [others]" so many times without wanting some proof I actually perpetrated the alleged crime.

If you read what I said, you will see it was a general comment not on aimed at anyone specific.... if you chose to see what I wrote as personal attack then you made that determination on your own as my comments were certainly not a personal attack against you or anyone else nor were they worded as such or mention anyone specifically.
 

Neo said:
If you read what I said, you will see it was a general comment not on aimed at anyone specific.... if you chose to see what I wrote as personal attack then you made that determination on your own as my comments were certainly not a personal attack against you or anyone else nor were they worded as such or mention anyone specifically.

I'm sorry, Neo. It was not you specifically that got me started. As I said, the same was said several times earlier, usually in reference to a quote from either myself or Psion that had nothing to do with censuring someone's beliefs. I'm a touch irritable about the whole thing. I did not intend it to be directed at you, I simply used your post, perhaps inappropriately, to illustrate a point.
 


Something related tothis happened to me today

Went to the local gaming store today and asked if they carried Eden Studios' "Witchcraft" products and was told, by the owner, that he didn't carry anything for the game because of one of the covers. He mentioned the neighborhood watch also being a reason he didn't have the game. The cover he was talking about was for the Abomination Codex (I think) that has a horned figure and a pentacle or pentagram on the cover... but what would people expect on the book, fuzzy bunnies? He said he could order anything I wanted, but I don't know what I want until I look throught it and if I don't like it, I don't buy it. That's how I feel about BoVD, if I like it, I'll buy it. Mostly, I play pretty PG characters, but a couple of times I've taken a character down a darker path. Why, just cause it worked for the character.
What am I rambling about... that's it's a person's choice to buy or not buy ANY book for an RPG. What about kids? Well, I feel that in smaller game stores, why can't the "Adult" material be kept in one place so a store owner or parent can supervise who's buying what. As for the local store owner, I'm a bit dissapointed. I'd think that he'd know the history of our hobby and expect some people to sometimes give him a hard time about what he might carry. However, it's HIS choice to just make things easier by trying not to invite that to happen. I'll just get my Witchcraft stuff elsewhere.;)
 

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