[Vile? Mature] Going Too Far.

[Maldur]

It doesn't have to do with your age. More with the subject. You might have used something that felt very wrong. I dont know for what reason, the lady next door might have had a miscarraige, it could be anything. The problem with events liek that is that it might be taken wrong by certain people, while other people have no problem with events like that. Its always hard to find that balance. PBEM or PBP games are worse in this respect as you cant see the reactions of the players.

I dont think you did wrong. But the story as told might have not been the best for this Player.

Good luck.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Know your players. Talk to them. Things like this really should be discussed with your players before hand so you have a feel for what you should do and how far you carry a concept.

Now, personally I say you did something very rare in your game, you made your players feel. Like a book/song, the game can and sometimes brings out strong emotions. It is a good DM that does this and when players look back on it the game stays with them good or bad.

 

[tleilaxu]

impossible to know without experiencing it... my guess is this:

players' thought train: i or my friend have gone through losing a child, either through miscarriage or choice, and here this 19 year old is trying to engage me in these ideas. and now i have to roleplay out something i have experienced in my real life. bugger! i resent this kid (now you become a kid, cause its an easy blow)... i resent the fact he is trying to introduce an idea he knows something edit: nothing not something about, but i do. is he trying to educate me? (plus if you are male and the player female that adds a whole new level).

Anyway... none of that is meant to make you feel bad, but it may be what went through someone's mind and caused them to call you "childish" or whatever

 

[Kahuna Burger]

As a female player, and one who has seen Dms introduce very sensitive topics as "plot elements", I'm gonna break from the soothing pack and say - yeah, you obviously screwed up some. And your age is a factor in it.

Players can become very emotionally invested in the story. This is not a sign that they "can't tell the story from real life" or any such crap, it means they are enjoying it. Usually, I (for one) allow myself to become more or less invested in a game/book/whathaveyou based on whether I can handle the subject matter becoming personal. I can become very invested in heroic fantasy, but keep boundries like crazy from stephen king. It is wrong to get your players invested in a story then throw in the sort of "plot elements" that people want to keep boundries up around. You did this, unintentionally, but you need to learn from it, not be told that its the player's problem.

your age is a factor because you know the theory and intellectual parts of a lot that you have not encountered in an emotional sense. Your players are not insulting you or using a easy slam when they talk about your age. They are saying "I forgot you were at an age where this is just another story element to you. You understand everything you need to make it a story element, but not that for some of us it has been a real life issue." I have encountered this on gender, not age. One DM just couldn't seem to understand why I dealt with threats to have my character raped differently than the male players did when such was discussed with their female characters.

pay attention to what your players are saying, learn from it. Neither passive guilting nor saying "ah its their problem" is a useful response.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

Wow. A DM who handles a touchy subject intelligently. Hardly "childish" at all. I think tleilaxu is right, and the "childish" slam was just a knee-jerk reaction to an uncomfortable situation.

As for "clearing topics" with players beforehand, that's hardly possible without tipping your hand. I'd suggest a small disclaimer before the game even starts. Something like:

This game is for mature players. Sensitive subjects may arise during gameplay. If this may bother you, please don't join this game. Thank you.

If someone presses for details, just give a vague, "It may involve drugs, sex, or something which should have been in the Book of Vile Darkness."

There is no way you can predict what subject might offend which player.

Please let us know where and when you post the log to the web. Sounds like something worth reading.

 

[Henry]

I have to disagree on one chord - that of your age. Just because a person is a certain age or has not experienced a certain thing first hand does not mean they cannot understand its emotional impact. That's a form of exclusionism I don't like. I have been through the deaths of most of my family, some violent and some natural, but that doesn't preclude someone else who has never seen the death of any of their immediate family from understanding the grief and sorrow that it would cause.

There is one thing I do applaud you on, Xarlen - you DO need to cover with your groups you play with what subjects are and aren't acceptable to present in-game. In your case, being an online game, it is always harder to gauge the feelings and preferences of your players. In person, a DM usually knows his or her group, and can gather this info pretty easily, after a short time. And really, this should have been done BEFORE the game ever began.

But I do think it was a little of a "low blow" when the player in question called your age and emotional maturity into question. This would have bothered me, too! On the other hand, the comment could have simply been an overreaction from striking an emotional nerve like you did.

 

[tleilaxu]

They are saying "I forgot you were at an age where this is just another story element to you. You understand everything you need to make it a story element, but not that for some of us it has been a real life issue."

this is what i was trying to express in my post

edit: in reality is it is impossible for us to judge from the outside. i'd rather read the log before saying your treatment was immature or not

 

[JoeBlank]

For the most part I agree with what others have said. Sounds like you handled a mature topic in mature manner. Perhaps some sort of "possible mature content" disclaimer might have helped, but it is difficult to do this without giving anything away. Mature can mean so many different things (rape, slavery, drugs, etc.), and a player may not want to avoid a mature game just because one possible mature element upsets them.

As far as the precautions about knowing your players, I am curious how well you know them. I play in an online game with a group that has been friends since early childhood. I am also in a couple of PBEM games with people I have never met and know very little about. Obviously, if you knew the player in question, knew of some past experience in her life that would make this a sensitive issue, and used it anyway, then you stepped over the line. However, I doubt this is the case. For example, after reading her post above I would not introduce a drug-addicted character in a game in which Dragongirl was a player.

Even if you knew the player fairly well, pregnancy difficulties and miscarriage are areas that many people keep private.

Again, I think you did a great job, from what I can see here. Tell the player you are sorry that you touched a nerve, you appreciate how well she played it despite the sensitivity, and you will keep her advice in mind in the future.

 

[WizarDru]

Unless I'm misreading something, Xarlen's players never referred to him as 'childish'...quite the opposite, overall. They said they were reminded of his age in this instance, "despite his maturity", I believe was the quote in the first post. No one accused him of being a bad DM, no one berated him directly, but there was obviously a lack of enjoyment on some player's parts. I haven't read the transcript, and I don't know the people involved, so I can't say for sure if Xarlen made a mistake or not.

I would put forth two thoughts. First, age CAN make a difference. Not necessarily from a maturity standpoint, but from a perspective standpoint. Xarlen is under twenty, some of his players over thirty. I can't speak for them, but I can speak for myself and those I know that our view of life and some topics changed dramatically over those years. My view of the acceptability of certain topics has changed. Other life factors can affect this, too. Once you've had children, you view child endangerment and abuse MUCH, MUCH differently than before. Life experience changes perspective.

From that perspective, I think Xarlen screwed up...NOT because of his age per se, but of his lack of appreciation of this fact. He didn't check with his players to make sure that he was going to cover some material that was potentiall upsetting to some players. It's a minor mistake, and it grants experience. If Xarlen is still upset with it, contact the player, make sure they understand that it was intended to upset anyone, and move on. Mistakes happen; no harm, no foul.

Second: I don't think this would have happened in a face-to-face, 'around the table' game. That's not a condemantion of online gaming, which I think is great (though I don't have much call to actually do it). Merely that Xarlen is gaming with folks he doesn't really know that well in the RW, I'd hazard, and so he isn't as familiar with their personal situations. Moreover, an online game doesn't allow you to read the reactions, attitudes and body language of your fellow players, to realize things aren't playing out as well as hoped. If he could see three of his four players not reacting well to the plot, he might have toned down the 'my children, my baaabiessss!' element, to the enjoyment of all.

In short, don't sweat it too much, Xarlen. Chalk it up to a learning experience that makes you a better DM, and move on. I would, however, try and make the player in question understand your motivations. I think that would be a benefit to both of you. Her personal issues are not your responsibility, true, but as DM, you have something of an obligation, IMHO.

 

[tleilaxu]

well, just one last note from me. i'd never try to include "vile" stuff in an online game with people i don't know well.

we all have friends we can say crazy stuff to that other people would take the wrong way. but everyone isn't like that