[Vile? Mature] Going Too Far.

[ForceUser]

Once when I was 18, I DMed a game in which a group of NPC thugs attempted to subdue and rape a female PC. I thought I was being clever, mature, progressive; a good DM. I wanted my player to trounce the thugs in an act of, I don't know, heroism, independance...pro-feminism perhaps. I thought she'd enjoy putting the miscreants in their place.

Instead, my player was deeply offended, but I didn't find out until her boyfriend paid me a visit some days later and confronted me. When he explained why he was there, I was surprised, embarrassed, and sorry for the distress I had apparently caused her. The three of us patched things up and remained friends for the rest of the year until we graduated high school and went our separate ways in the world, but that episode taught me a lesson.

You have to be very careful when introducing volatile subject matter into a campaign. First and foremost, your players are playing to be entertained. Some of them want to play light-hearted fantasy, others may be looking for something darker. Take the time to get to know your players before you spring shocking or vile material on them. If you're DMing a group of strangers, talk with them at the table, or individually, and explain that you want to run a game with mature subject matter from time to time, and make sure that's okay with them. If five of your players don't mind but the sixth doesn't want to deal with "realisitic" evil, then you shouldn't run it. Or that player should look for a game that suits them better. Or the two of you should come to a compromise. Whatever. What's most important is that you communicate and let people know from the get-go what your plan is for your game. It can save you from having to deal with uncomfortable situations like this.

 

[Xarlen]

Note: I asked the player of mine who does the log editing when he'll be able to post the raw (unedited) long, and he informed me he'd be able to either Tomorrow or Saturday, for anyone interested.

 

[William Ronald]

Xarlen,

Based on all that I have read, I think that you have shown maturity in this thread.

I think the problem is that it is hard to know what will touch people and how they will feel when something is presented in a game. Communication, as many have said, is key. So, my advice is to talk to players and be careful about how you present sensitive subjects.

In game villains can be portrayed as truly viscious, and despicable. There are many ways to portray villains, from merely hinting at their evil acts to elaborately portraying them. Again, I think it helps to know your players. So, when in doubt, ask. (The goal of gaming is to have fun, so knowing your players helps with that goal as well.)


Xarlen, the fact that you are concerned about the feelings of one of your players is to your credit both as a DM and a person.

 

[nopantsyet]

If anything, I would say it being an online game was probably more to blame than anything you did or didn't do. And I wouldn't say it's because of the oft-repeated fact that you can't convey tone etc. etc. etc. online, but rather because you don't have human contact. Emotions like those that you evoked are not comfortable ones. And when you're sitting in a room looking at another face, I think you can make a connection that locks the experience in perspective. But when there's not a pair of human eyes looking back at you as your roleplaying, I think it could be easier to feel it as a one-sided experience, as emotional manipulation, or as insensitivity. But it really sounds to me like you put together an extraordinary game. It doesn't sound to me like there's an age issue; it sounds more like age was used to deflect the real issue, which was that you moved them in an uncomfortable way. And that is not a bad thing in my book.

And to draw a line, I think there is a very wide gap between dealing with the unfortunate, but natural consequences of an imperfect world (eg death in all its forms, including miscarriage) and dealing with the dark evils that some people choose to perpetrate (eg rape, abuse). That type of issue I think should be dealt with according to the recommendations of BoVD, which is clear it with your players first. And topics of either nature should be presented respectfully--that is in a way that would not demean the experiences of others.

Loss of a loved one is a sad reality that we all will face over and over until we are the cause of it for someone else.

And it doesn't matter if the cause is age, sickness, miscarriage, tragic accident, or substance abuse, whatever--death sucks, but it is real, and to expect someone to avoid the issue altogether on the chance that the particular mode of loss touches close to a real experience...well they'd better just lock themselves in a dark room far away from reality, cause hurt comes looking for you in this life--you can't get offended every time somebody reminds you of it. And to do so then to lay blame for that or flippantly attribute it to age, gender, race, religion, etc. reveals where the true lack of maturity lies.

"Politically-correct sensitivity" be damned--we all could use more shakabuku! (e.g. a swift spiritual kick to the head)

But then it could just be a matter of taste. Some people like Hamlet, some people like Much Ado About Nothing, and some people like Funky Winkerbean. De gustibus non disputandum est.

 

[Xarlen]

I would have to say I disagree with your first point, Nopa.

If the situation bothered her online, I imagine if I had done it face to face, it would have been far, far more painful. Because I know I could have done that scene very emotionally (I was crying at the time, I can IMAGINE what I'd be doing with the players present). Confronted with it online could have offered a better buffer then face to face, where you Are looking at it, and hearing it, and are trapped with it.

 

[mythago]

I would also disagree strongly. Xarlen wasn't trying to oog out his players (a la CoC), and he wasn't thinking "Hehe, she had a miscarriage--this will hit [the female player] where she lives!"

I'm glad you and the player were able to talk it out. I do think your players were being boneheads by remarking on your age; I'm sorry, but let's face it, a lot of us old fogey types DO have a snotty attitude about younger players.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

Some people roleplay for the meaningful emotional experience it can bring into their lives. Being able to 'live' through the experiences of someone else can be intense. I think the subject matter in question was bold and creative and was obviously going to create a certain amount of emotional resonance with some of the players. This can make for cutting edge roleplaying... the sort of heady stuff that serious gamers crave and aspire for.

On the other hand, some of us like our roleplaying simple and cheerful. For some of us, roleplaying is pure escapism. I don't want reality to creep into my games - I deal with the nastiness of real life the other 6 days of the week. Consequently, even though I have a pretty strong tolerance for most topics, I really don't appreciate certain things in my games - rape, child abuse, torture, etc. This means that the sort of game session cited, no matter how well it is DMed, will miss the mark for me. Always.

Take that as you will Xarlen. I don't think it necessarily means you made a mistake, but you need to accept that if you strive for a certain type of game experience you may alienate some players... no matter how mature and intelligently you handle the session.

 

[tleilaxu]

Note: I asked the player of mine who does the log editing when he'll be able to post the raw (unedited) long, and he informed me he'd be able to either Tomorrow or Saturday, for anyone interested.

indeed. i hate praising or condemning from second hand knowledge

 

[WizarDru]

I agree with this as long as we agree that there are more options than

A) never doing anything that might offend your players and allowing their comfort zones to dictate campaign content absolutely, and

B) not giving a hoot about their comfort zones or feelings and just doing what you like, to heck with them.

...snippage...

There's no absolute right or wrong, except to say that consideration is always useful, and so is story-telling integrity. Each campaign finds its own balance between those sometimes opposing qualities naturally. "Be considerate," and "Tell great stories," are both excellent pieces of advice for DMs everywhere. If you find them conflicting then you'll have to decide for yourself what the right balance is.

Agreed on both counts. I don't mean to say that there is no wiggle room here, as there should be. My main reaction was to the contention by some in the thread that making your players react emotionally, regardless of the emotion in question, was always a good thing. Sometimes it is, and some imes it isn't. Your last paragraph should be chiseled in stone, somewhere.

 

[mythago]

IMO, there is a big difference between having a mature event have happened in the past, to an NPC, and having such an event happen now, to a PC or a beloved NPC.

There is quite a difference between the PCs finding out the Mad Wizard is nuts because he was raped as a child, and having the Mad Wizard's thugs try and rape members of the party. One is background. The other is forcing the players to confront an ugly situation face-to-face.

And of course, caveats about knowing players' styles and sensitivities. If I were running a goofy, one-off Feng Shui, I wouldn't put in "mature" content for the players to deal with. But anyone who joins my Delta Green game better not be whining about ooginess.

BTW, my inner pedant feels compelled to mention a couple of things: most miscarriages happen very early in a pregnancy, so early that the woman probably wouldn't have known she was pregnant except that we now have very good home pregnancy kids; and, it doesn't by itself leave a scar.

</pedant>