Virtual Immunity from Attacks

[mikebr99]

Challenging encounters are supposed to drain off party resources... this doesn't necessarily mean hps. It also means spells etc. If the party's Mage is getting by with this tactic against a few bigger encounters per day, maybe you should mix it up a bit and add a few more lower level encounters so that the mage has to start to decide when to use this tactic and when not to.

And also disguise a weaker looking encounter as one of your bigger ones by adding class levels to the everyday monsters.

 

[Uller]

This is really kind of the point of spell casters...they can buff themselves and others up to be _superior_ to the frontline tank types in combat. But spells wear off (Haste only lasts one round per level and if you use it to cast two spells per round, then you really run out of spells quickly). A Fighter's combat effectiveness is constant as long has he can keep his hit points up. So like everyone said, you should generally try to have the party have to go through 3-5 challenging encounters per day. If the wizard spends all his resources (spells) in the first two fights, he'll be useless later. If he wisely chooses to conserve his strength, he'll be less effective in each fight, but able to participate throughout the adventure.

My party recently ran into this. We spent almost all our spells on two fights while exploring a small ruin only to be attacked by brigands in the night. They were on horse back and armed with short bows. We were on an open plain....with almost no spells...you can see where this is going. Half the party was bleeding on the ground and most of our henchmen were dead by he end of what would have been an easy fight if we had conserved our strength.

 

[Marimmar]

Reading your post makes me worry that you have it in for the wizard. When a PC is effective, it's usually considered bad form to change all the spells so that he is no longer effective. That's a sure way to irritate your players. Remember, it's fun for the PCs to be effective, and each buffing spell he takes is one less fireball or magic missile.

Don't worry, I'm not out to get the mage, he's just an example and never really existed. I just felt that this 'hot iron' would best be started off by telling a little story instead of just complaining.
We're about to begin a new campaign and all rules will be in effect beforehand with all players knowing them. Trying to change the rules while our campaigns were still running led to bitter trenchwars with noone willing to give up anything. Starting all over with some spells and classes nerfed seemed to be the best option. We try to have a balanced game so that all classes are viable for normal gameplay with noone feeling that his character got the shaft.

You can't let him get too cocky, though. If the wizard is wrong and this combat is followed up 15 minutes later by another combat, he's going to be in for a world of hurt.

He would be but unfortunately the party always retreats if even a single spellcaster is running out of spells. Otherwise I agree with you and pulled that off a few times but my players are very defense oriented. I've seen a barbarian run around for several levels without raging even once because he feared the AC loss.

Personally, I think shield and mage armor are fine. In my game I am considering removing the +4 AC bonus from haste, though. In addition, if I was going to start my campaign over, I'd set haste and mass haste at one level higher than they currently are.

Interesting to see that you all increased the spell level of haste. IMHO the spell would be okay if it were the exact reverse of slow and if spellcasting would be prohibited (just like in former editions).

~Marimmar

 

[mikebr99]

He would be but unfortunately the party always retreats if even a single spellcaster is running out of spells.
~Marimmar

So, follow them... throw them off balance. Track them back to their hidy-hole and smoke them out.

 

[Squire James]

The key words here are: grapple the mage. I mean, grapple the mage. His AC against the touch attack is 19 (1 size + 3 enhanced dex + 4 haste + 1 deflection), and the grapple check is based on Strength and BAB (both of which should still be poor). The mage is held immobile, and can still be hurt.

Did I mention grapple the mage?

Okay, if the mage complains about being grappled all the time, start grappling the cleric too!

 

[Vaxalon]

He would be but unfortunately the party always retreats if even a single spellcaster is running out of spells.

Retreats to where? Why are you giving them places to retreat to that never get attacked? That's very 2e and should be avoided.

 

[Forrester]

I don't think there's a real problem with the combos that you mentioned, I think there's a problem with the way the GM is running the game.

An adventuring party should not be fighting a single combat and then resting each day! That is what makes the wizard unbalanced. Suppose the fight you mentioned is the first fight of the day. The wizard has cast:

Mage Armor, Cat's Grace, Shield, Haste and Toughness. Of those, the Shield and Haste are gone shortly after the end of the fight. Since he is making use of the Haste spell to cast two offensive spells every round, we'll say he cast 6 offensive spells during the combat.

A fifth level wizard with a decent intelligence (bear with me, I don't have my PH on me) has about 5/4/2 = 11 spells, not counting cantrips. Let's assume he's specialized, so that is 6/5/3. Of these, he's cast at least 2 first levels, 2 second levels, 1 third level and 6 other offensive spells. That means for the second combat he has about 1 first level, 1 second level and 1 third level spell left. Now, he can go ahead and use his combo for the next fight, but that leaves him with only one second level spell for offensive use. He's really in trouble in the next fight where he doesn't have any spells left at all except the protection spells that last all day. That's the fight where you sic the dispel magic on him

Wizards and sorcerers can be really tough if they use their spells effectively, but they don't get them back until they rest. A good adventuring party should be facing at least 3-4 challenges (including traps and such) before they rest, and even that is no assurance that they won't be attacked during the night. Wizards have to plan carefully and spread out their spell use to make sure they are effective throughout the day.

Balsamic Dragon

Hey, BD. While I think you are correct in theory, I'm not so sure that your solution works in non-dungeon-crawl non-meat-grinder campaigns. In a Wilderness campaign, there are often going to be only one or two encounters a day (unless the "Wilderness" happens to be the Abyss).

If "realism" is what you are looking for (call me Mr. Simulationist), it's tough to constantly put the PCs in situations where there's so much time pressure/danger that they absolutely need to proceed when they're down to 1/4 of their spells (as opposed to kicking back and resting). Not that it can't be done, obviously. But I'd say it's tough to do consistently -- unless you're running a meat-grinder.

Also, if you go by the four-encounters-of-equal-CR-to-the-average-party-member theory of encounters, the mage simply isn't going to buff up completely each combat, because he's not going to have to.

When the 6th level party comes upon four ogres (EL6), the wizard isn't going to bother buffing up. One fireball will do half of the work -- maybe throw an Endurance on the local meat shield.

What does this mean? Er, I dunno. That no matter what, wizards are cheaty? Surprise surprise .

 

[kreynolds]

I'm shure other DMs faced the same problem at low mid-level.

Nope. Not once. Maybe I'm lucky. Maybe I'm good. Maybe my players are mature. I don't know. Food for thought, anyway.

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

hey you control the universe, if they run everytime they get low on resoures, don't let them. Trap them where they are or have them run away right into an ambush. If thet're magic items make them tough, give there opponents equvilant items. Use anti-magic fields, dispels, and mind effecting spells. Hit "Fighter" with random action or somesuch thing and see how happpy they are with thier super tough characters then.

 

[Christian]

He would be but unfortunately the party always retreats if even a single spellcaster is running out of spells.

Geez. Tell me how they manage that, so I can share it with my group ...

Anyway, by my count, if Waldemar's tossing his two spells per round that he can throw with his Haste up, he's down to zero-level spells after one round, or two if he's a specialist. Of course, he spent the first round of combat buffing himself ... I'm sorry, but this would just not work out in the games I've played in. There's not generally anyplace safe to retreat to, or there's a time limit to achieving the goal of the adventure, or everyone just gets damn bored with fighting one monster and then running away ...

If everyone's as defense-oriented as you say, the solution is to make a situation where they have to go all-out and take some risks to succeed. It's not really that hard to do, especially for low- to mid-level characters. If there even is a 'primary combat' for an adventure, it should be buried behind lots of middlin' combats, and may not necessarily be obvious that it's the primary one. If they're constantly leaving and coming back to use the same tactics, the monsters will learn what they're about and start targeting the tactics. This isn't metagaming, it's playing the monsters as non-suicidal morons. And if the dragon is draggin' ( ) the fair damsel away to its lair for a dinner date, it may not be interested in having that dinner tomorrow instead, after the party has rested & regained spells. (Pretty much this exact thing happened to my group in the adventure before last ... by the time we'd finished diddling around & stopping to rest and resupply, the person we were trying to rescue had expired. We eventually sent the bad guys on to their respective afterlives behind him, but it was a Pyrrhic victory at best ...)

Good luck!