Virtual Immunity from Attacks

[Marimmar]

Redeeming myself a bit...

Before everyone thinks I'm a wimp as DM, here are some things I came up with in one of my campaigns.

The party is up against the Cult of the Dragon and those guys are tough. They're fighter types all have mage or cleric support, they all round around with greater magic weaponed arrows. The cult clerics use scrye to find out the party's location and hunt them down, enemy wizards usually haste themselves and cast double empowered lightning bolts. So far it's all pretty balanced since the party's wizard is more occupied with surviving ranged spell and +3 arrow attacks instead of killing the enemy. But this is already lower high-level campaigning where the enemy is well prepared and has lots of resources to draw from.

I actually almost destroyed the party with a single cult wizard although the CR only indicated a 25% loss of resources. I ain't proud about it but it's a strong indicator of haste being too powerful because a single high level spell is already powerful but two high level spells can kill off a party.

~Marimmar

 

[Tsyr]

Give 'em one good dungeon crawl.

They retreat after the first battle? Too bad for them when they get back and the entire dungeon is waiting for them, with defenses prepared

 

[CWD]

Two words...

Weenie monsters.

If you throw a bucket of 1 HD creatures at them, the weeenie monsters need around a 20 to hit AC 20 and up, and it doesn't matter if a PC has AC 25 or 30. I've tried this tactic against super high AC characters before and it works. If you as the DM make enough attack rolls, you WILL hit.

For bullet-proof wizard killing, try a dozen 1st-level orc barbarians (EL 8). They can do an insane amount of rage damage on a single hit (1d12+6/x3 crit I think?). Sure they only hit the wizard on a 20, but if there are 12 of them, each one has a 5% to hit, and they WILL connect soon enough. That should convince the wizard to use more fireballs and fewer mage armors. Now this might not work as well if your fighters have cleave or great cleave, but if they are maximized for fighting small numbers of powerful foes...

 

[Henry]

Marimmar,

I am sorry to hear that your players sound rather uncooperative. To me, it is always good practice to work with the DM if he finds that things aren't working out with an existing rule or ability that a certain character has. But to have "bitter trenchwars with no one willing to give up anything" sounds really harsh.

As for your group's tactics, I applaud them for actually having some. Many groups I have been party to fought on even in the face of an obviously superior enemy. For my current group, they learned a valuable lesson last time we gamed - that I wasn't afraid to throw fights at them that they couldn't win. They still surprised me by winning, but they started taking great care later on against obviously more powerful enemies.

As for running at all times, however, I have to applaud Balsamic Dragon's suggestions. Sometimes, the villain won't wait. Not all enemies are simply waiting for the big, bad adventurers to show up and surprise them. Do you have your opponents react to the obvious threats before them, and beef up defenses when the PC's return? Do they plan traps and ambushes that leave your Players little time to cast enhancing spells?

Think of it this way: If your home were burglarized, and you had signs that it were to be burglarized again soon, would you leave your home EXACTLY as it was? Or would you call the Police, and possibly arm yourself against further incursion? Monsters and other foes would do the same thing.

 

[Vaxalon]

One nasty trick to use for suitably equipped dungeon dwellers is to have the first encounter in the door something that can be painlessly replaced.

My personal favorite is a trap that triggers a summon monster trap in a nearby room, whereupon the monsters charge into the room to kill the PC's. If they use up all their spells on those critters, then turn around and leave, the trap has served its purpose.

 

[Kibo]

Stupid Goblin tricks.

A little tactical thinking goes a long way. As long as they're out in the woods looking for grandma's house, the "bad guys" get to plan for trouble too. Goblins are weak, so they travel in numbers. The party would be unlikely to just stumble into the main force of the goblins, they might run in to sentries, or even a small probe. After all ambushing warry travelers and attendant security is hard work requiring not a small number of goblins, or what have you.

What *really* would hurt your players is that period of spelling up, while the monsters assumably cover the distance seperating them. That's like a free action for your bad guys. A gift, from the PC's. They can bolt, attack, or other. I'd have the small initial force they run into be 3 in number (but probably never more than that). Then even if the warrior and the cleric are smart (in the hypothetical example) the wizard won't be. The one who survives contact blows a loud horn and books, enticing the PC's to give chase. They don't acctually have to chase it to have a little fun, but if they do, they can run right into hail of whatever your favorite ranged weapon is, not to mention traps. And might not goblins have pets. Mean pets. Like abused and hungry wolves that were brutally trained to attack things that make weird hand movements. Funny thing is, that would count as a grappaling attack as another poster mentioned. Two or three of those, and the wizard isn't likely to even survive long enough for the cleric and fighter to save him.

Not that there shouldn't be some minor bad guy walk ons where the show up and say, "Uh, I'm hear to establish the heroes?" But it's nice to mix it up. Maybe they happen upon a modest cabin and some subplot that doesn't end in entrails and tears. They could even happen upon wild life that is happily ignoring them (which wild life will often do). Now if they do (not that hypothetical PC's would) something like kill a momma bear and cub while they shout, "It's comming right for us!" Well, it might just happen that the druid protecting this area takes a dim view of @$$holes.

Weaker mindless monsters would instinctively avoid the PC's, weaker mindful ones, would probably alternate between fear, and champagne wishes and caviar dreams. PC's should be given something of a hint about how powerful something is unless it made some sort of attempt to purposely conceal the fact. Even then they should get a roll.

 

[trimeulose]

Ok so I've read everything from change the spells to change the DM. Me being bored and having nothing else to do I think I'll put my 2 hay pennies in.

1) Haste is a crap spell when you throw in the fact that slow counters it instantly with no check.

2) The party should face a variety of encounters where no one tactic wins over every thing.

3) The DM worries too much.

4) If your players power game you wont stop them by changing the rules. There are instances where WotC has poor editing skills and even poorer judgement but for the most part the system works.

5) Flatfootedness can be a killer your "mage" might want to watch out for that.

6) There are a variety of tactics that you can use to artificially boost your attack.
1: grapple hey it DOES work against non melee types
2: Trip- being prone means no dex + addition +2 (I think)
3: Flank- duh
4: masterwork weapons- cheap but get the job done
5: weapon focus- might want to consider this one for levels of PC
6: high ground- +1 from being higher than opponent

7: Spell casters have a tendency to be able to take care of spell casters.

" ohh you have mage armor....ect. here take this fire ball" no ref means mage dies"

8: players should have variety or they will complain
give the players a situation where the fighters can deal with the situation easily but the mage will be hurting. (i.e. use saves instead of attack bonus) give situations where combat is useless (skill checks instead of damage recon, diplomacy, sailing, stranded situaions) and of course tanks and artillery situations.

9: do what feels right not what looks right or should be right or what might be right

10: have fun and don't worry

 

[rankarrog]

1.Give the enemys magic,too. Not necessary directed right against the spellcasters tactic, like Dispel Magic but something which seems generally reasonable(If someone mage- looking stands in the backyard he's most likely preparing a fireball, it's reasonable to take him out before he frys the 1st liners. Come on your wiz would do the same ).

Handling 2-4 extra 1st lvl Src kobolds with Crossbows and True strike's, isn't that hard for the DM, but a threat to any "tankwiz" and it's also reasonable to do this instead of magic missles (Why should a first level Char waste his spells with Magic missle(1d4+1 Granted Damage), if he can have a True Crossbow-Hit(1d8 Damage Granted 95% of all the time against AC 23 or less(If you are a small creature with dex 13) ).

2. Hit him while it hurts(before he casts haste/shield )
Just to show the Tanks that their HP's and AC are good and the wiz needs all protection he can get, fudge (seldomly) a bit at the suprise round, and bring him down to say 50% of his HP while the Tanks get away with more.

3. Attackers from more than one side(and Shield will be not worth it salt, but the Tanks armor will be)