Voluntarily failing saves when spellcasters lie

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Hi all,

A scenario for you (not based on an actual game...yet):

Doug the fighter has finished his latest battle with significant injuries. He asks his friend Mike the cleric to heal his wounds, and Mike agrees. Unbeknown to Doug, Mike has been replaced by an evil doppelganger cleric. Instead of casting cure moderate wounds, the trickster casts Slay Living instead.

Does the fighter get a save?

My interpretation: the cure spells allow saves ... but since the spell is harmless, the recipients tend to waive those saves by default. If the doppelganger manages to cast Slay Living without arising the fighter's suspicions, the fighter forfeits his save and dies ... especially since he requested the healing magic!

I would allow the fighter an opposed Sense Motive vs. Bluff to notice any odd behaviour in the cleric, plus a Spellcraft check if he is trained in that skill. Succeeding at either check would allow him to make a save to avoid the spell effect (and force the doppelganger to make the touch attack to hit).

What do you think?

 

[Diirk]

I think he'd get a save regardless.

 

[Jack Simth]

As written, the best option for one who can't normally tell one spell from another is simple:

Don't choose.

With Harmless spells, you can make a save if you so choose, but by default, you don't save against it.

With non-harmless spells, you make a save by default, but you can forgoe your save if you so choose.

If you don't make a choice, about the only thing that'll cause issues are things like Enlarge Person, which are buff spells, but don't have the Harmless descriptor.

 

[SadisticFishing]

As written, the best option for one who can't normally tell one spell from another is simple:

Don't choose.

With Harmless spells, you can make a save if you so choose, but by default, you don't save against it.

With non-harmless spells, you make a save by default, but you can forgoe your save if you so choose.

If you don't make a choice, about the only thing that'll cause issues are things like Enlarge Person, which are buff spells, but don't have the Harmless descriptor.

My thoughts exactly. Don't accept Enlarge Person from people you don't trust absolutely

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Save or die spells, in this situation, are really cheesy.
If there were no other signs beforehand that pointed to a replaced party member, such as odd behavior, that someone could pick up on, then it's just going to be 100% kill one more party member and start the battle from there. How much fun is that from the target of said Slay Living? A Cause Wounds of appropriate level would be more fair to the targeted player, otherwise, it's 'oh my god, they killed Kenny!' roll for initiative..

 

[eamon]

I think it's nasty, but indeed, if you voluntarily forgo your save, you'll be affected. Not choosing is not an option - the question is, are you resisting the spell's effects, or not?

However, I would give the fighter a hefty bonus on his sense motive - chances are, he's been affected by cure ??? wounds many, many times before, and he'll recognize differences. Further, he'll probably recognize the specific gestures and signature traits of the cleric, so making the deception even easier to recognize.

 

[rgard]

I think it's nasty, but indeed, if you voluntarily forgo your save, you'll be affected. Not choosing is not an option - the question is, are you resisting the spell's effects, or not?

However, I would give the fighter a hefty bonus on his sense motive - chances are, he's been affected by cure ??? wounds many, many times before, and he'll recognize differences. Further, he'll probably recognize the specific gestures and signature traits of the cleric, so making the deception even easier to recognize.

For the recognition of the gestures and verbal component, I would leave that for a spellcraft check.

 

[Thanee]

For the recognition of the gestures and verbal component, I would leave that for a spellcraft check.

There are situations that are beyond the capabilities of the system.

Bye
Thanee

 

[eamon]

Save or die spells, in this situation, are really cheesy.
If there were no other signs beforehand that pointed to a replaced party member, such as odd behavior, that someone could pick up on, then it's just going to be 100% kill one more party member and start the battle from there. How much fun is that from the target of said Slay Living? A Cause Wounds of appropriate level would be more fair to the targeted player, otherwise, it's 'oh my god, they killed Kenny!' roll for initiative..

Well, if I were a doppelganger I'd definitely choose the most effective spell. Intentionally not casting a Save or Die spell just because it's annoying... well... that destroys the fantasy in my view. I'm willing to give my players plenty of hints, extra sense motive checks and what not, but in the end, if they just don't get it, the Bad Guys do take advantage. Anything less, and it's no longer suspenseful!

However, perhaps the doppelganger could choose a less... obvious spell. Something which won't tip off other party members right away, and allow him to maintain his charade. I wouldn't know what, however, not off the top of my head. Perhaps he could convince him to lie still and then cast Hold Person instead? Even if he voluntarily fails his first save, he'll get to make more each round, and the Doppelganger would be served because the party wouldn't notice instantly (realistically) when an already still person remains still a while longer, giving him potentially valueable rounds to get the Slay Living spell to affect, say, the party's Sorcerer.

As a DM, that solution is nice, because it's rational in character, and it means that there aren't any death's without saving throws happening.

 

[frankthedm]

I think it's nasty, but indeed, if you voluntarily forgo your save, you'll be affected. Not choosing is not an option - the question is, are you resisting the spell's effects, or not?

I too say there is an option not to choose. Jack smith called it out correctly IMHO . http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow