VoP vs. Call Weapon

[irdeggman]

An item with a specific cost is not in and of itself a restriction of the VoP.

See the ordinary (not masterwork or magical) simple weapons and other items (like a bag - which has a cost) and a spell component pouch (again an item with a cost).

Foci and divine foci are not specifically mentioned as allowed in the VoP.

The text for what is in a spell component pouch is pretty darn specific. Commas seperate items. In fact you can substitute "and" for a comma when used in a list.

See {line through and italicized words for subsituting per normal English grammer rules}

Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, and divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

Divine foci are not included in a spell component pouch.

Spell component pouches are one of the few items allowed via the VoP. Other items allowed are specifically listed - foci are not one of them.

 

[Artoomis]

I have submitted the follwiong to Customer Service (reference number 061011-000040)

Please consider this for a FAQ article, it has been the subject of much dispute on ENWorld a (and likely elsewhere):

Can an ascetic character (one with Vow of Poverty) have/use:

1. A Holy symbol, if personally made?
2. A Holy Symbol, if carved into the allowed staff?
3. Use the blade of a Soulknife. It is "semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind" but also "identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword."

 

[Artoomis]

...Divine foci are not included in a spell component pouch.

Spell component pouches are one of the few items allowed via the VoP. Other items allowed are specifically listed - foci are not one of them.

True enough.

Of course, this could have been a simple oversight since a spell component pouch is allowed. If WotC gives us a good, definitive answer to may questions then maybe we'll know for sure.

Anyway...

You most certainly can own and use a quarterstaff (walking stick). The rules are not really clear on whether a divine foci can ONLY be a purchased holy symbol for a cleric. If the Divine Foci could be carved into a quarterstaff, then it would not be a possession in and of itself, thus would not need to be listed in VoP as allowed.

It all comes down to what forms are Divine Foci allowed to take. We know for sure:

"The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith."

We also know it is possible to purchase a holy symbol. What we do not know is what form holy symbols must take and whether they can be part of something else.

BTW: I guess there is no argument that a cleric who uses a quarterstaff as a holy symbol / divine foci could use the VoP just fine. Is that agreed, at least?

 

[irdeggman]

First I think you misrepresented the problem with the soulknife. It is not merel that is just like a weapon it is that is magical (i.e., it gets those enhancement bonuses +1 and on) at higher levels. IMO a case could be made that it is not a martial weapon (and probably not even a simple weapon) since there are no "feats" for using the mindblade. It is that magical part that gets in the way.

Second there are already FAQ entries addressing the divine focus question. From pags 24-25 of the latest FAQ:

How do the equipment restrictions put on a character by the Vow of Poverty feat affect class-defining items? (Examples include a cleric’s holy symbol, a wizard’s familiar, a samurai’s daisho, and a paladin’s mount.)
The Vow of Poverty feat is very specific about the items that a character can own while gaining the benefits of the feat (see page 48 in Book of Exalted Deeds for details). It specifically disallows ownership of masterwork or magic weapons, and thus a samurai who chooses this feat must give up the possession of his daisho (his pair of masterwork weapons). A holy symbol does not appear on the list of eligible items, and thus a strict reading of the feat would disallow the item.

A familiar, special mount, or animal companion isn’t a material possession, and thus a character with Vow of Poverty isn’t restricted from gaining the benefits of such creatures. Remember that the Vow of Poverty feat, like most of the material found in Book of Exalted Deeds, is intended for mature campaigns that are capable of handling difficult role-playing issues—it’s not intended for most hack-and-slash games. A cleric who must give up his holy symbol (effectively preventing him from turning undead or casting any spell that requires a divine focus) could be a very interesting challenge for a player who’s “done it all” and wants to try something unusual.


Can a kensai (Complete Warrior, page 49) select unarmed strike as his signature weapon? If so, does this allow him to take Vow of Poverty while still retaining all the benefits of his signature weapon class feature?
Unarmed strike can be selected as a signature weapon by the kensai. The class feature even includes guidelines for how to adjudicate such a choice (see “Imbuing Natural Weapons” on page 51). As far as both abilities working together, a strict reading of the rules would appear to allow it. (Of course, the enhancement bonus of the exalted strike ability from the Vow of Poverty wouldn’t stack with any enhancement bonus granted by the signature weapon class feature.)

That said, the Sage would fully support any DM who felt this to be an unfair abuse of the spirit of the Vow of Poverty. One of the reasons that Book of Exalted Deeds is a “mature audiences” book is that many of its options are intended to allow players to create interesting roleplaying opportunities while not unduly hindering their characters’ ability to participate in adventures, not as avenues of abuse to create the most powerful character imaginable. If the DM felt that the kensai in question was trying to take advantage of the wording of Vow of Poverty to subvert its spirit, he’d be well within his rights to disallow the character from selecting the feat.

A better solution, though, would be for the DM to work with the player to find a middle ground that both can find fair and reasonable. As a start, the character might give up the exalted strike benefit of the Vow of Poverty (since he still “owns” a magic weapon, in a manner of speaking, and doesn’t need that benefit). If the weapon granted other abilities that overlapped or resembled benefits derived from the Vow of Poverty, it’s probably fair for the character to give up those benefits as well. As long as the character doesn’t seem to be netting significantly more from the combination of signature weapon and Vow of Poverty than a typical character would get from the vow alone, it’s probably okay.

The same is true of any character whose identity or class features are largely defined by a single possession. If, for example, a samurai from Oriental Adventures wished to pursue a life of poverty but didn’t want to dishonor her family by discarding her ancestral daisho, it seems reasonable for the DM to work with the player to find a reasonable middle ground (as described in the previous paragraph).

 

[irdeggman]

Notice the discussion on the signature weapon issue and the recommendation to work with the player to come up with something that fits without bypassing the role-playing aspect of the VoP. This is similar to the Save My Game article's recomendation.

 

[Artoomis]

First I think you misrepresented the problem with the soulknife. It is not merel that is just like a weapon it is that is magical (i.e., it gets those enhancement bonuses +1 and on) at higher levels. IMO a case could be made that it is not a martial weapon (and probably not even a simple weapon) since there are no "feats" for using the mindblade. It is that magical part that gets in the way.

Second there are already FAQ entries addressing the divine focus question. From pags 24-25 of the latest FAQ:

Yes, but I don't know that anyone has addressed the question of whether a Holy Symbol, can actually be part of an allowed item, thus being allowed. I think that's a bit of a different spin on it and well within the spirit and letter of the VoP feat - though such a holy symbol may or may not be permitted by the rules.

Of course it's easiest to simply have a cleric whose holy symbol is a quarterstaff. There must be one out there somewhere.

As for Soulknife, it is simply not a magical wepoan - it is a physical mainfestation of energy. This is very much like spiritual hammer and other spells - though of course the actual implmentation is different.

It probably should be handled much like the Kensai, but it certainly is permitted by the Vow, without question.

 

[Blightersbane]

Oh great, now we have re-hashed the Soulknife/VoP discussion, thanks. Now my group is discussing spells like spiritual hammer, greater magical weapon and comparing them to the mindblade. Did I just here the 2nd round bell ring?

Blightersbane

 

[irdeggman]

Yes, but I don't know that anyone has addressed the question of whether a Holy Symbol, can actually be part of an allowed item, thus being allowed. I think that's a bit of a different spin on it and well within the spirit and letter of the VoP feat - though such a holy symbol may or may not be permitted by the rules.

I thought the Sage's answer was quite specific on a cleric's holy symbol. Frequently the Sage answers questions not specifically asked while answereing a different one.

Of course it's easiest to simply have a cleric whose holy symbol is a quarterstaff. There must be one out there somewhere.

Nope - wouldn't matter. A holy symbol (regardless of the form) is not on the list. An ordinary simple weapon is (e.g., a quaterstaff) is. Note that the specific restriction is no divine focus - so a druid can not have any DF either.

As for Soulknife, it is simply not a magical wepoan - it is a physical mainfestation of energy. This is very much like spiritual hammer and other spells - though of course the actual implmentation is different.

Not really. One is an effect the other is most definitely an object (regardless of what it is made of). It has hardness value. It is treated as a magic weapon for purposes of bypassing DR. Then at later levels it gains an enhancement bonus to attack and damage and then at later levels it gains special enhancements (that are for the most part listed as magical properties). So I just don't see how it can't be considered a magical object.

It probably should be handled much like the Kensai, but it certainly is permitted by the Vow, without question.

Sorry there is most definitely question on this one. Conservatively I would say it isn't allowed by a strict reading of the rules. But I would most definitely handle it like the Kensai.

 

[Artoomis]

I thought the Sage's answer was quite specific on a cleric's holy symbol. Frequently the Sage answers questions not specifically asked while answereing a different one....

Nope - wouldn't matter. A holy symbol (regardless of the form) is not on the list. An ordinary simple weapon is (e.g., a quaterstaff) is. Note that the specific restriction is no divine focus - so a druid can not have any DF either.

Note that DF is NOT prohibited - it is simply not on the list that is allowed, whereas a quarterstaff IS allowed - so if your quarterstaff happened to ALSO be your divine foci, it would be allowed.

As for Druid, I am not sure if a sprig of mistletoe is allowed or not. If it is a material spell component for any spell, then you could have one with teh allowed spell componenent pouch.

Not really. One is an effect the other is most definitely an object (regardless of what it is made of). It has hardness value. It is treated as a magic weapon for purposes of bypassing DR. Then at later levels it gains an enhancement bonus to attack and damage and then at later levels it gains special enhancements (that are for the most part listed as magical properties). So I just don't see how it can't be considered a magical object.

Can it be destroyed. Sort of - you can just create a new one. Can you sell it? No. It is NOT a magical item - only very, very much like one.

 

[irdeggman]

Note that DF is NOT prohibited - it is simply not on the list that is allowed, whereas a quarterstaff IS allowed - so if your quarterstaff happened to ALSO be your divine foci, it would be allowed.

As for Druid, I am not sure if a sprig of mistletoe is allowed or not. If it is a material spell component for any spell, then you could have one with the allowed spell componenent pouch.

If it is not on the allowed list it is prohibited.

Sorry that is a poor way to attempt a workaround of the restriction.

If the sprig of mistletoe is a divine focus and not a material component then it is likewise not on the list of allowable items to own and use.

Foci are not material components - we've had that discussion on the threads many times before.