Vorpal Crits

[DLichen]

Exactly. you don't maximise them.

Ah, I get you, I meant maximize as maximized utility from gloves of destruction and vorpal, not literally maxed as in being critical.

I should be more careful in a rules forum, my bad.

 

[Andur]

Dlichen, you are wrong on your critical damage reading. Under your reading you would not add feat, enhancement, or other damage bonuses to hit on a critical either since you are only allowed to add those bonuses to damage rolls (PHB 276). With a critical hit the maximized result becomes a proxy roll. With a vorpal weapon that means you get one "free" max roll and then get to roll the dice to see if you can continue the damage.

For plain game terms, under your ruling a Dwarven Fighter with an 18 Str, Wielding two hand axes +2 with TWF, and the Dwarf Weapon Training Feat would only do 10 points of damage (6 from hand axe + 4 for strength mod) versus the 15 points that the book states you would get (6 from axe, +4 str, +1 TWF, +2 DWT, +2 enhancement) on a critical hit.

Since the example on a critical hit (PHB 276) clearly supports the former, critical hits are a proxied damage roll.

 

[DLichen]

Dlichen, you are wrong on your critical damage reading. Under your reading you would not add feat, enhancement, or other damage bonuses to hit on a critical either since you are only allowed to add those bonuses to damage rolls (PHB 276). With a critical hit the maximized result becomes a proxy roll. With a vorpal weapon that means you get one "free" max roll and then get to roll the dice to see if you can continue the damage.

For plain game terms, under your ruling a Dwarven Fighter with an 18 Str, Wielding two hand axes +2 with TWF, and the Dwarf Weapon Training Feat would only do 10 points of damage (6 from hand axe + 4 for strength mod) versus the 15 points that the book states you would get (6 from axe, +4 str, +1 TWF, +2 DWT, +2 enhancement) on a critical hit.

Since the example on a critical hit (PHB 276) clearly supports the former, critical hits are a proxied damage roll.

Damage rolls are clearly defined in the rules to include feat, weapon, and power bonuses. The vorpal rule clearly refers to physically rolling the dice and not the actual damage roll.

In your intepretation, the maximum damage of a vorpal damage weapon is infinite since each max dice results in another max dice. While it fits with 3e vorpal, it also negates the xd12 bonus damage on a critical, so it clearly is the wrong definition.

 

[hong]

Damage rolls are clearly defined in the rules to include feat, weapon, and power bonuses. The vorpal rule clearly refers to physically rolling the dice and not the actual damage roll.

No, it clearly refers to damage from the weapon, whether that's physically rolled or not.

 

[Andur]

In your intepretation, the maximum damage of a vorpal damage weapon is infinite since each max dice results in another max dice. While it fits with 3e vorpal, it also negates the xd12 bonus damage on a critical, so it clearly is the wrong definition.

No because any dice after the initial roll are EXTRA DICE, only the initial roll is maximized on a critical hit, after that you must roll the dice, so in the example I gave above the Dwarf would do 15+1d6 damage with a Vorpal Axe (even though +2 Vorpaals don't exist) if a 6 is rolled then roll again.

Read PHB 276 again, critical hits clearly include feat, weapon, and power bonuses; things that can ONLY be applied on a damage roll.

 

[Danceofmasks]

You know, strangely I think everyone here is saying exactly the same thing, but think the others are saying something else.

 

[WhatGravitas]

In your intepretation, the maximum damage of a vorpal damage weapon is infinite since each max dice results in another max dice.

...and? What's the problem with this?

Cheers, LT.

 

[DLichen]

No, it clearly refers to damage from the weapon, whether that's physically rolled or not.

No, not at all.

Nowhere in:

Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage
die for this weapon, roll that die again and add the additional
result to the damage total. If a reroll results in another
maximum damage result, roll it again and keep adding.

Critical damage is not rolled on die. Damage roll is a rules term clearly defined on page 276.

Critical hits even specifically say that rather than roll damage, you just do the maximum.

There is 0 wriggle room on this, it is completely unambigious.

...and? What's the problem with this?

Cheers, LT.

Critical hits automatically do maximum damage. If maximum damage is infinite, and critical hits on a vorpal weapon do infinite damage, why do vorpal weapons add d12s to a critical hit?

 

[hong]

Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage
die for this weapon, roll that die again and add the additional
result to the damage total. If a reroll results in another
maximum damage result, roll it again and keep adding.

Critical damage is not rolled on die. Damage roll is a rules term clearly defined on page 276.

Yes. You just need to take the "roll" bit less literally.

Critical hits even specifically say that rather than roll damage, you just do the maximum.

Exactly. You do everything else exactly the same as for a normal hit. It is a normal hit, except you omit the "roll" bit, and thus you apply vorpal to it.

There is 0 wriggle room on this, it is completely unambigious.

That's what they always say.

Critical hits automatically do maximum damage. If maximum damage is infinite, and critical hits on a vorpal weapon do infinite damage, why do vorpal weapons add d12s to a critical hit?

To add to the expected damage, of course.

 

[Andur]

Dlichen since you clearly want to "Stick to your guns" even when wrong, please explain the following:

Example: Valenae. a 12th-level eladrin paladin,
hits a foe with thunder smite. The attack deals 2[W] +
Strength modifier thunder damage and knocks the
target prone. The damage would be 2d8 (longsword’s
1d8 × 2) + 7. The +7 bonus includes her +3 Strength
modifier, a +2 feat bonus (Weapon Focus), and a
+2 enhancement bonus (from her +2 thundering
longsword).
If she scores a critical hit, she deals maximum
damage of 23 points and adds 2d6 thunder damage
from her thundering longsword. If she wanted to use her
thundering longword’s encounter power on this hit, she
would add 10 thunder damage and push 1.

IF you are taking :

DAMAGE ROLLS
✦ Roll the damage indicated in the power description.
If you’re using a weapon for the attack, the damage is
some multiple of your weapon damage dice.
✦ Add the ability modifier specified in the power
description. Usually, this is the same ability modifier
you used to determine your base attack bonus for
the attack.
In addition, any of the following factors might apply to
a damage roll:

literally, then how does the paladin in the example get a critical damage result of 23?

Critical hit = maximum damage rolled on dice. Vorpal weapon = maximum damage is rolled on a die take result add roll of die to damage, rinse and repeat. However, critical damage ONLY applies to the initial dice rolled, any extra dice which are granted are not maximized, the critical damage "roll" is resolved before you roll any "maximum RESULT" rerolls for the vorpal ability.

The wording on critical hit just was easier than stating "roll damage until you get maximum". The way it should have been stated was "your damage roll is maximized" rather than throwing in that "instead" word.