Vorpal Crits

[DLichen]

On average rerolling the initial "maximized damage" will cause a increase of 50-60% damage over a regular crit.

And the infinite damage is not possible without some major abuse.

50% increase which just isn't necessary since the crit does 30 something damage more than a noncrit anyway.

I have no idea what you're pushing for when you're still ignoring the rules as written. There is no reason to reroll the weapon dice at all except for personal preference. Houserule it then.

 

[RefinedBean]

Well, if the custserv person said that the dice are "considered to be at the maximum possible roll," then that's good enough evidence for me that the critical damage that's being added up is really just a roll of max damage with all other bonuses applied.

Are there any other cases in 4E of damage simply being added up and then applied? Crits may be an exception, but it would help support that side.

 

[DLichen]

As previously stated, Custserv doesn't answer in lawyer talk, and the specific case of vorpal wasn't being asked, so it really doesn't account for much.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What infinite damage interpretation? No one's proposing that vorpal criticals do infinite damage.

Well, that depends.

Let's say I make an attack with my Vorpal Weapon and do not roll a critical. What is the maximum damage I can roll with the attack?

-Hyp.

 

[hamishspence]

damage die

When you look up Damage die in the back of the boook, it directs you to Weapon damage Die (always represented as W) So, when it says Any Damage Die in vorpal weapons, does it mean Any Wespon damage die?

If so, if extra damage die of any kind that wasn't W (Hunters Quarry, Sneak, Devastating Critical, Critical Hit dice from magic weapons)- would not explode.

That combined with only allowing rolled dice, not automatically maximised dice, to explode, would mean you could only ever get ridiculous damage on a non-critical.

That is, unless it was High crit. High crit weapons get extra W dice on a crit, W dice are explodable.

Whether this is good or not I am not sure, but Vorpal weapons certainly should be no better than ordinary weapons of the same cost. Using both these rules (only W dice are explodable, and maximised dice on a crit are never explodable) would certainly keep them under control.

 

[RefinedBean]

As previously stated, Custserv doesn't answer in lawyer talk, and the specific case of vorpal wasn't being asked, so it really doesn't account for much.

So any answer from custserv isn't correct if it doesn't match your stance on the issue?

It's all we have as an official ruling from WotC, for right now. It's good enough for me!

But your houserule is still a good one, and it's definitely not a major issue in any case.

Here's hoping we'll get even MORE clarity on the issue, eh?

 

[Andur]

Dlichen, I could say you are ignoriing the rules as well with your entire a dice roll isn't a dice roll theory...

However take a +6 Magic Weapon and a +6 Vorpal, same weapon, same crit dice, compare damage, run it both ways with counting "maximized dice" being counted as rolled and also not rolled, the difference in damage will be 50-60% in favour of the Vorpal. For an endgame item that is not too bad, instead of doing 40-50 points you will do 60-90 points...

 

[DLichen]

I'm pretty sure somebody asked custserv and got that hunter's quarry, sneak, and devastating crit don't get rerolled since they are sources of damage not from the weapon.

I interpret Vorpal as saying that any die provided by the weapon is exploding, so that includes the d12s from the crit and the daily power. But I do agree that you can also read that as [w] die only.

I'm not sure it's necessary to keep them in control persay, since they aren't overpowered unless you go by the infinite rule and there's no other competitor for best magic weapon enhancement at the moment. Vorpal without the boost is still the best magic mod and far better than the others in terms of straight up damage.

 

[DLichen]

Dlichen, I could say you are ignoriing the rules as well with your entire a dice roll isn't a dice roll theory...

However take a +6 Magic Weapon and a +6 Vorpal, same weapon, same crit dice, compare damage, run it both ways with counting "maximized dice" being counted as rolled and also not rolled, the difference in damage will be 50-60% in favour of the Vorpal. For an endgame item that is not too bad, instead of doing 40-50 points you will do 60-90 points...

50%-60% on top of already being the best is slightly over the top.

And I'm not ignoring the rules if I'm pulling quotes straight from it aren't I?

If you go by laymen's terms:

Vorpal says to reroll die you roll, Crit hit says don't roll die - clear case

If you're slightly rules lawyer:

You can only apply die mods to damage rolls

If you actually read the rules:

A critical hit is a damage roll without rolling die

The problem only occurs when you get halfway into legalese and stop AND you have to assume a contradiction in the rules.

 

[hamishspence]

thats what I mean

Each weapon enhancement of the same cost should be roughly the same value for money. i can live with +6 Vorpal being a little better than, say, +6 dancing.

But if its majorly, hugely, better than any other enhancement with same price tag, something is wrong.

I'm guessing the theoretically infinite damage possibility on non-crits should work, since it says any rolled damage die that comes up max gets rerolled and the re-roll added it, and if it keeps coming up max, it keeps getting added in. Might prefer it if no reroll dice can explode, but if it doesn't say that, it doesn't say that.

But allowing actual infinite damage on a crit would be a mistake.