Vorpal weapons?

[Plane Sailing]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vorpal weapons?

That's a really frickin' cool idea, actually! What kind of bonus? Do you think +5 is still good? Myself, I think I'd go with +4. What do you think?

(Damn good idea, dude!)

Thanks K!
I'd only go with a +4 bonus. I don't think it works out better than dancing or speed which both give an extra attack in their own way.

Cheers


(delayed reply due to boards problems during the week)

 

[kreynolds]

I'm actualling thinking of having my Vorpal enhancement auto-confirm critical hits as well. I think this would be a great addition to the enhancement, and would put the finishing touch on the uber-nasty +5 enhancement. Hmm...time to playtest.

Well, I tried it out and it worked great, so I'm adding this to my version of Vorpal.

 

[kreynolds]

kreynolds version makes Vorpal more powerful than most of the powers in the ELH.

Like the original version of Vorpal, I designed mine long before the ELH ever came out, and it's perfectly in line in regards to power of the core rules. When the ELH is thrown into the mix, however, even the original vorpal doesn't make senses as a +5.

Think about it; +3d6 fire per hit and +6d6 fire (total 9d6 fire) on a crit for +8, or cut off a head (big fat maybe) for +5. If you were 30th level, which one would you choose?

Personally, why not just make Vorpal a +10 bonus instead of a +5, and keep it almost as is, except make it so that only the natural threat range threatened a beheading, while a normal crit does damage x2 (for instance, a longsword does 2d8 on a crit, but then mutiple that by 2 for final damage, but also include ALL modifiers to damage, including stuff that normally isn't counted in a crit such as sneak attack damage and the like); this makes Vorpal super-deadly, harder to get, and doesn't nerf it while not keeping it TOO powerful.

Whatcha guys think?

The main problem I have with this idea is that I would still have to waste my time trying to figure out if you can even cut the head of the creature off, if it would even kill it, and if not, how would it affect it. In my experience, this just slows things down and makes the enhancement terribly unreliable for a +5 enhancement, let alone a +10.

Also, I try to avoid multipling die rolls as much as possible, and it's pretty much discouraged in 3rd edition, which a few exceptions, such as Empower Spell. I mean literally multiplying, not just increasing the number of die by a multiplier.

Last, but not least, its a personal thing for me, but I don't ever multiply additional damage dice, such as sneak attack or flaming, not ever. That kinda thing die in 2nd edition, and I prefer to be reminded of 2nd edition as little as possible.

 

[Someone]

I´ve just thought a new version of Vorpal; when you make the critical confirmation roll, you can add a +1 to the critical multiplier for each -2 o perhaps -3 penalty you take in that roll.

Don´t sure if anyone will like it.

 

[kreynolds]

I´ve just thought a new version of Vorpal; when you make the critical confirmation roll, you can add a +1 to the critical multiplier for each -2 o perhaps -3 penalty you take in that roll.

Don´t sure if anyone will like it.

Sounds like something more appropriate as an epic feat, which would be pretty cool.

 

[Anubis]

The main problem I have with this idea is that I would still have to waste my time trying to figure out if you can even cut the head of the creature off, if it would even kill it, and if not, how would it affect it. In my experience, this just slows things down and makes the enhancement terribly unreliable for a +5 enhancement, let alone a +10.

Unreliable? The books even states, if it has a head, cutting the head off most likely kills it. It's easy to note exceptions, such as the Hecatoncheires or most Undead.

If it would sound better, however, instead of making it a beaheding, make it suck the life force and soul out of the creature to kill it instantly. Then, you need not worry about it. If it's LIVING, it dies unless it's immune. Simle.

Also, I try to avoid multipling die rolls as much as possible, and it's pretty much discouraged in 3rd edition, which a few exceptions, such as Empower Spell. I mean literally multiplying, not just increasing the number of die by a multiplier.

Last, but not least, its a personal thing for me, but I don't ever multiply additional damage dice, such as sneak attack or flaming, not ever. That kinda thing die in 2nd edition, and I prefer to be reminded of 2nd edition as little as possible.

Why would that be a reminder of 2nd Edition? I don't see the connection. A multiplier to damage would set Vorpal apart as very deadly and pretty unique. If it would work better, though, you could always LITERALLY double the critical multipler to make x2 a x4, or x3 a x6, etc.

I´ve just thought a new version of Vorpal; when you make the critical confirmation roll, you can add a +1 to the critical multiplier for each -2 o perhaps -3 penalty you take in that roll.

Don´t sure if anyone will like it.

That certainly works but would not be anywhere near a +5. I would make that +1 or +2 at the MOST, and make the penalty the square of the multiplier you're adding, making it +1 multiplier for -1, +2 for -4, +3 for -9, etc. But the weapon bonus would be only +1 or +2, because this is pretty much the same as Keen except with the other factor.

 

[kreynolds]

Unreliable?

Yup. It's far less reliable than Flaming, which is only a +1 enhancement and effects nearly everything, yet Vorpal is a +5 enhancement and doesn't kill Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, Undead (damn near all of them), any monster that lecks a discernable head and neck, and other specific monsters.

The books even states, if it has a head, cutting the head off most likely kills it. It's easy to note exceptions, such as the Hecatoncheires or most Undead.

As well as the other types I mentioned.

If it would sound better, however, instead of making it a beaheding, make it suck the life force and soul out of the creature to kill it instantly. Then, you need not worry about it. If it's LIVING, it dies unless it's immune.

Elementals are alive. Like Outsiders, they can't be raised. Unlike Outsiders, they are immune to crits, but they are still alive. Golems, which are Constructs, are powered by earth elementals, yet a Vorpal weapon will not kill a Construct. "Living" is way to ambiguous to use. I get your meaning, but the point of redesigning the Vorpal enhancement was to make it less of a pain in the rear to use it. "Living" wouldn't simplify it in my mind.

Why would that be a reminder of 2nd Edition?

Because a Nat 20 got you double-max damage. First, you max your damage, then you multiply it by two. 3rd edition works really hard to avoid that kind of multiplication.

A multiplier to damage would set Vorpal apart as very deadly and pretty unique.

I agree, which is exactly why I added the x10 force damage multiplier to mine. The high amount of damage at a +5 cost isn't a problem unless you're using the epic level rules, and like I said, the DMG wasn't designed with the epic level rules in mind at all.

If you're interested in just raising a weapon's critical multiplier, I'd recommend taking a look at Caliban's Reaver enhancement. It was pretty cool actually, and I even use it in my games. It raises the multiplier of a weapon by 1 point at a cost of +1 market price modifier. It's pretty cool.

 

[Avatar28]

Oops, posted this in the wrong thread...

We ran into the same problem of a vorpal being overpowerful. One of the players doesn't have the books, so another player rolled up two extra characters for our beginning 20th level campaign. One of them wasn't really intended for a PC character, though, and was powergaming to the max. Barbarian/Weaponmaster with a maxed out improved critical and weilding a keen vorpal scythe giving a crit threat on 16-20. With all the plusses to hit, a crit threat becomes almost a sure thing. He had, I think +30 something or more to hit.

Anyways, it was to be a short session, so the DM just really planned about one combat to try out our characters. So Reaper (the name of that character, appropriately enough) gets init and goes first. Attacks and sure enough rolls a 16 and backs it up. Instakill on the 400+ HP slaad we were fighting. Really doesn't make for a very fun session.

So far, the best idea I've found is Krynolds, or one very nearly like it. That way it's not SUCH an instakill. If you're going to stick with it as in the book, I also think that magic like Deathward should protect against a vorpal crit and it should provide a save against the beheading. Possibly reflex, to say that the target was (just) able to dodge out of the way to avoid getting their head cut off, but it still got them good.

 

[Ruvion]

I like kreynolds version of the vorpal, a lot! Thanx kreynolds...I will have to say I need to incorporate this variant in the upcoming campaign at Christmas.

However, unless the vorpal weapon expands to indefinable lengths like an uber lightsaber, I will go with a reduced effect based on target creature size and vorpal weapon size.

Such as, if with a vorpal weapon you score a critical against a creature larger than the weapon size, reduce the force damage by x3 per size difference but to a minimum of at least x1 force damage. If wiht a weapon of sharpness you score a critical against a creature larger than the weapon size, reduce the force damage by x1 per size difference but to a minimum of at least x1 force damage.

Something like this, incorporating a force multiplier reduction:


...............................................Target Size & Force Multiplier
Weapons by Size.......Small......Medium...Large......Huge....Gargant.....Colossal
Kukri (tiny)
sharpness..................x3..........x2..........x1..........x1..........x1..........x1
vorpal.......................x7..........x4..........x1..........x1..........x1..........x1

Handaxe (small)
sharpness..................x4..........x3..........x2..........x1..........x1..........x1
vorpal.......................x10.........x7..........x4..........x1..........x1..........x1

Longsword (med.)
sharpness..................x4..........x4..........x3..........x2..........x1..........x1
vorpal.......................x10.........x10.........x7.........x4..........x1..........x1

Greatsword (large)
sharpness..................x4..........x4..........x4..........x3..........x2..........x1
vorpal.......................x10.........x10.........x10........x7..........x4..........x1

*Large slashing double weapons count as medium-size slashing weapon for purpose of force multiplier.



Sheesh, I wish I knew how to setup tables...
Hhhhmmm...maybe the market price should be adjusted for weapon size differences.

 

[kreynolds]

However, unless the vorpal weapon expands to indefinable lengths like an uber lightsaber, I will go with a reduced effect based on target creature size and vorpal weapon size.

For me, the damage scales just fine without it being too complicated. For example, a vorpal dagger would deal 10d4 points of force damage (40 max), but a vorpal greatsword would deal 20d6 (120 max) points of force damage. That's an 80 point difference, and it reflects the difference between the two weapons well enough. Besides, if you reduce the force damage for smaller weapons, eventually someone's gonna throw a monkey wrench in your works by asking why a flaming dagger deals just as much fire damage as a flaming greatsword. Kind of a double-edged sword.